Category: The Diary Of A CEO

Everybody is in a rush to fire 10 to 25% of their workforce, but 10% unemployment would be worse than anything that’s ever happened in our lifetimes. We’re going to have a depression like we’ve never seen in our lives. Wow. Jake’s a real Debbie Downer today. I mean, this is an unbelievable opportunity we’re talking about. I got to buy more sunglasses for how bright the future is. If you notice, Kevin actually didn’t address the wave of unemployment at all because there’s no question that it’s going to happen. And when we hit the iceberg, we’re not going to be ready and it is going to be an epic disaster. Change is disruptive and it’s uncomfortable. But the scare factor of saying that everybody loses their job and the robots eat the children, I just don’t buy it. I I don’t know anyone saying that the robots are going to eat the children. And I understand that change happens, but we have to be careful with change because by 2028, we’re going to have disaster from AI, unemployment, and disaster from the war. The only hope is electing a smart person who’s prepared in 2028. Republicans, I have one thing to tell you. N

there’s no way. Nobody’s showing up to vote. Their voter enthusiasm is obliterated. But the Democrats have also lost their way. And the Republicans only have one guy who could win. And I’m worried about it. Tucker Carlson. So, as we head towards the midterms, but also the elections, which I’m not actually that far away now. Do you agree that we’re heading towards a more socialist America? So, let me just say this. How about that for an answer?

This is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So, favor to ask all of you, please could you check right now if you’ve hit the subscribe button, if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here. We’re approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double check if you’ve hit it. Only thing I’ll ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I’ve stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of the Dio and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let’s get on with the show.

Jenk Kevin, thank you so much for being here with me. Um, there’s so much going on in the world that I have so many questions and you both have very different perspectives on all of the issues that I care about the most. So, I thought I’d bring us together to try and pass through what is true. Unlike a lot of shows, I I don’t expect a shouting match. What I’m trying to get is to truth. And I’m hoping that seeing the collision of your ideas on some of the big issues that are front of mind for me like artificial intelligence, like geopolitics, like what’s going on in America now that I live there, I think will be incredibly beneficial to me and hopefully therefore my audience. I have this graph here that says 7 in 10 Americans oppose local construction of AI data centers. If you go back in time, any new technology is extremely disruptive. Change is disruptive and it’s uncomfortable and it always is that way and yet it always proves within the context of the American economy to create a lot of productivity and opportunity. And I would argue today if we’re going to find a cure for cancer, it’s going to be through AI. If we’re going to democratize education, it’ll be through AI. If we’re going to do some advances on space research and travel, it’ll be through AI. Productivity in the S&P 500 and it’s all small companies, AI. And you can’t have it without data centers. You actually need the underpinnings, the infrastructure. And so that debate, that narrative is going on, but there’s a dark side to this that I’ve only started to bring forward in the last couple of weeks. I discovered this in Utah that there are some nefarious forces. Um, Arabella is the name of it. I didn’t know anything about it, but I was wondering who was spending all the money in Utah with all that misinformation about what the data center was going to be talking about using water we weren’t or using power we had no intention to or 40,000 acres that’s complete BS. It was all lies. And I said, who can afford that? So, I hired a bunch of forensic auditors and lo and behold, it took me back to the Chinese through Arabellum. Uh Neville Singum is his name. He’s funding all these organizations in Utah and I caught him through the IRS90 filings and I handed it over to the White House and to a bunch of special agents and I just wonder what’s going to happen next. I’m loving this now. This is so interesting and it’s a national debate and the poooo’s hit the fan. But I’m not debating this. I’m not suggesting it. I have irrefutable evidence the Chinese are meddling in every place where new power is being proposed in America, every state, every city. And it all goes back to the Chinese through this Arabellum. And just look at the IRS filings. Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m just providing the truth. Kevin, so just just for context here, there is a proposal to build some data centers in Utah, and you’re saying that the push back and the negative reaction that has been seen is being encouraged or sponsored by the Chinese who are driving misinformation through bots. Is that what you’re proposing? No, it’s not through bots. It’s actually through contributions that are shown through a a wide network of different entities. It’s very it’s very well um cloaked, but through forensic audit and IP address scraping uh with some really strong data scientists that I hired and I’m working with, we were able to provide 90 pages of IP addresses from foreigners uh to various agents and various entities within the US government. And we’re going to keep doing it. We’re we’re providing it every 4 hours. where cuz one thing I have that I guess they hadn’t thought through is I have 12 million followers on social media. No, no uh data center developer has 4 million followers. This all showed up on my feeds with bots on on Twitter which is now X and on Instagram and then on to LinkedIn. So we just provided the data to the government and where the chips fall I have no idea. And we had death threats uh to our executives. I provided that to the FBI and they visited the woman who did it in Denver. I think scared the pee pee right out of her, but she won’t be doing that again. So, I mean, it’s Listen, bring it. Don’t mess with me. I’m just going to provide the data back to the government. I’m I’m I’m just telling the truth. I’m not debating it. I’m not suggesting it. I’m providing the IRS filings of the cash coming from Marabella right into the Alliance for a Better Utah. The story I mean that’s Listen, I didn’t ask for this fight. I’m just providing the data. Is that how you see things? Are you seeing the push back in terms of AI? Um, do you think it’s coming from Chinese sponsored actors or do you think it’s something else? No, I I don’t think China has anything to do with it. Uh, so first off, there’s a lot of things Kevin and I share. Uh, I’m also an entrepreneur. I’m a capitalist and went to Wharton Business School. So, I love America. I love the opportunity that America provides. I wanted to provide opportunity for all sorts of new businesses. So, that’s not remotely the issue. Okay. So, the question is, are we going to pay our own uh costs? So now on the AI data centers um in the beginning I started reading these stories about how the data centers are driving up the energy costs for everybody in that community that they’re based in and I couldn’t believe it but then I thought okay since we have basically legalized bribery in America that probably is true they’ve probably you know given enough campaign contributions to make this happen and it turns out they have. No, if you’re going to do a data center you have to pay for it and you have to pay for all of its costs. None of this subsidizing your costs to the average taxpayer who’s not getting anything out of it. So, we have to be absolutely meticulous about who’s paying for the cost of the data centers and it should be the businesses that profit from it. Unless you’d like to take have the American people take some equity in your business because if we’re going to pay your costs, obviously we should have equity in it. When we bailed out the bankers back in 2008, it was an absolute crime. We should have taken equity in those companies and then sold it later for a profit. I don’t want the government to run banks, but I do want us to not be suckers. Uh we constantly pay for the research of the drug companies and never get any equity. So, um if you going to be capitalists, let’s be capitalists. Now, the real reason why people are most angry about AI is not even the data centers. And they have every right to be livid about their energy costs being higher uh so somebody else can make a buck. Uh but the bigger issue is the unemployment that we’re all worried is coming and it most definitely is. So, there’s a lot of uh happy talk about, oh, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, robots are going to be cooking our salmon, or two years from now, I don’t really care. I don’t need my salmon cooked by a robot. What I care about is, are we going to have massive unemployment? And right now, and I’m curious what Kevin’s going to say about this because it’s kind of indisputable if you’re in the business community, everybody is in a rush uh to fire 10 to 25% of their workforce. and whoever gets there first gets a competitive advantage and the market’s rewarded and their stock uh price goes up. Well, if everybody goes to fire 10 to 25% of their employees, we are going to have u not just a recession, but a depression like we’ve never seen in our lives. And everybody’s whistling past the graveyard here. Uh so, do we have a plan? Does the government have a plan? The only guy I’ve ever heard of working on a plan to deal with this tsunami of unemployment is Roana. other than him, it’s crickets and I think we’re going to hit the iceberg really hard. Interestingly, Jen, the other person that I’ve heard talk about the unemployment wave coming has actually been some of the big AI CEOs. And if you go back and look look at their quotes through time, people like Sam Alman predicted that there will need to be some kind of UBI scheme. And I think Worldcoin, which is his other startup that uses um retina scanning to be able to distribute value to people to check their humans. One of the principles of the foundation of that company was to distribute UBI, universal basic income to everybody. So on this point, Kevin, do you do you disagree that there there will be a widespread unemployment apocalypse, as Jen has called it on his Twitter feed? So So let’s go through Jack’s shopping list of disaster. I think it’s fair to address them one at a time. Let’s talk with the energy. I totally agree with him. You can’t build a data center anywhere and tap into the grid because he’s right. the price of energy would go up at the library, the church, and the community center by 30%. And that’s what happened in Virginia. So that is no longer a possibility. In Utah, for example, I have to bring my own power. But the idea would be if we produce this energy because there’s no data centers without energy. We’ll put it back into the grid, not just for Utah, but for the whole country. Because I think he’s right. Anybody that’s building a new data center should have the responsibility to provide the power and put some of it back into the grid. That would solve two problems at once. The grid is tapped out. The library has no more power. We’ll solve that problem for Utah and the country. So that’s the first falsehood I run into fueled by the Chinese propaganda that came into Utah or whoever they are at Arabella, the CP C the CPP or the um you know who whoever this agency is because you have to follow it through all these nefarious holdings. But at the end of the day, that’s number one. Number two, the idea that everybody gets replaced by robots and then they eat the children, I don’t buy that at all. Every new technology in American history for over 200 years has created vast opportunity productivity and fueled the economy to lead all economies on earth by 20%. Which is still the case today. Now, it’s an uncomfortable reality that the market hit new highs today and that is an index of how great American companies are and the smaller companies that are 5 to 500 employees also hitting on all cylinders now using AI tools for productivity, customer acquisition, maintenance. So, the scare factor of saying that everybody loses their job and the robots eat the children, I just don’t buy it. And so, I think we should have that debate. But you don’t know yet what opportunities there are in the economy driven by this new technology. So I think what I know there’s fear and loathing and I think it’s important to have that narrative. I think it’s great to debate it but I think we should deal with fact. It’s very very uncomfortable when chain hits change hits anywhere and yet it’s proven itself within the context of the American economy to rise it above all challenges and still lead the world. Unfortunately, there’s the issue of defense and the economy against China. They’re our big adversary. In this last conflict in the Middle East where very few boots hit the ground, it was the technology that provided the ordinance precision that’s been used. In the future, wars will be conducted using AI. And unfortunately, the country with the best AI technology will win those wars. I would certainly not want China to be ahead of us. Yet, I think they’re the ones that would like to stop us building power and developing our AI platforms because they have something called DeepSk. I just want to put a fact out there because we’re talking about this. While we were stymied in building any new power, forget about data centers, just new power. The Chinese in the last 19 months built 400 gawatt of power off burning coal. They don’t care about the environment. They don’t have any policy about that. They have a supreme leader who points his finger at the ground and says, “Build a coal burning plant here. Put a data center behind it or you’ll disappear in 18 months.” And the people involved say, “Chop chop, Supreme Leader. We will make it happen.” We can’t do that in America. And he knows that. So he’s spending as much money as he can making sure he styies the efforts of every entrepreneur in every state to do the same. So that’s what I think is happening and I’m happy to provide the data as I mentioned earlier and let the government and their special agents in all of these different departments I’m working with now. I’m proud to be providing this information. I think I’ve kicked the door open on something very very nasty. Um Kevin, I would like to take a look at that information as well. So we I’ll pick pick up that pick up with you about that off camera. Um, what I wanted to ask you is a lot of this sort of doomerism around unemployment that we’re talking about comes from the CEOs building the AI companies. And this is something that that’s always caused me a bit of cognitive dissonance, which is I think if you go back to I’ve got some quotes here from March 2021. Sam Alman said, and he’s the for anyone that doesn’t know the CEO co-founder of OpenAI, which is the maker of Chat GBT, AI will probably replace most of the jobs people do today. entire job categories will be totally totally gone. And then Elon Musk said in May 24, probably none of us will have a job. If you want to do a job that job, it’s kind of like a hobby. You can do a job, but otherwise AI and robots will provide any goods and services that you want. And Dario, who’s the founder of Claude, which is the other major leading AI model, said this was in 2025, AI could eliminate half of all entry-level white collar jobs within 5 years. a shift that could push unemployment up to 20%. The public is being sugarcoated on what is coming. These are the people that are most wellplaced and arguably I mean depends how you look at it have the least incentive to say that their companies are going to cause societal harm and they’re saying that their companies are going to cause massive massive unemployment. Do we do we assume that they’re not telling the truth or that they don’t know what they’re talking about? I think that’s a very selective um bunch of sound bites. Dario also said the CEO of Anthropic, “If we don’t build more compute capacity in the next 6 months, the Chinese will catch up with us with deepseek.” That’s an ominous warning because, you know, let’s say you decide, look, it’s too scary. Let’s shut down the US’s ability to advance compute. Let’s just shut it all down as the Chinese want and let’s all sit around the campfire and go kumbaya. Do you think the Chinese are going to stop? I don’t think so. I think they’re going to continue to do this and they’ll invade Taiwan using no boots. They’ll just use AI to shut down their power. I mean, I’m just telling you that the Kumbaya stuff I totally agree with. I love it. But it’s not reality. Should we compete? Should we advance our technology? Should we be the best in the world advancing research on AI to solve for cancer? Yes. Or do you want the Chinese to do that for you? And in 20 years, they’ll tell your children what to eat when they’re sitting at their table in New York City for breakfast. I’m the in the camp that says, “We know who our adversary is. We know that why they want to stop us.” And Dario himself said, “Hey everybody, we better build some data centers real fast or in 6 months deepseek is now number one on earth.” I don’t want that outcome. Jen, it appears to me that, you know, there’s the CEOs are acknowledging that there could be a mass wave of unemployment that’s going to cause a bunch of problems that I don’t think people are thinking about. But also what Kevin’s saying about it, you know, there being this this sort of global race between countries also appears to me to be true that if we just sit back and relax and put our fingers in our ear, then there’s going to be a huge competitive advantage with this transformational technology that falls into the hands of China and um and we’ll miss out as the West. What’s your perspective? First, to address a lot of things that have been said. First, I I don’t know anyone saying that the robots are going to eat the children. So, I want to thank Kevin for educating me on a talking point there. Uh, I’m less concerned about that. A lot less concerned. Uh, but I am concerned about some level of death with AI, and that has already begun to happen. There are reports that we use AI and targeting that girl school in Thran where we killed over 160 innocent school girls. Uh, so if that’s what AI is going to bring us in precision, as Kevin pulled it, called it, uh, no thank you. I’m not interested in that kind of non-precision. Um, and and I would much rather have human beings involved in life and death decisions. And I’m super worried that AI is going to be used more in the military. And uh, no, I do not trust Palanteer. Um, so now in terms of universal basic income, I mean, think about it, guys. If a coder is making $120,000, you know, I I don’t know where that puts him in two years in, seven years in, uh, it’s a healthy salary. It’s not the world’s greatest salary, but it’s a good good salary for a middle class person in America. Then you switch to UBI, you’d be lucky to get 3,000 a month. That’s 36,000 a year. You’re going to go from 120,000 to 36,000. That is going to be devastating. Even if you magically got universal basic income passed in America immediately as the wave of unemployment hit, but I don’t think that’s going to happen either. So, is the wave of unemployment going to hit? Well, if you notice, Kevin actually didn’t address that at all. uh because there’s no question that it’s going to happen. That is why literally every CEO of the AI companies is saying, well, you know, our product is great and you should value us at a trillion dollars or so. Uh but yeah, you’re all going to be fired. And and that’s inescapable. It’s already begun. The coders have already started getting fired, especially young coders. Uh they feel totally betrayed. They have to find a new line of work. But maybe that’s a little bit easier for them because they’re young and they’re smart and they’re professionals, etc. Uh, and there’s a lot of smart folks, but getting a new profession at the age of 58, 62, what if you’re a truck driver? Um, and so I’m not saying that the Whimos don’t work better. I actually would trust a Whimo more than I would trust a human driver. But nevertheless, that car no longer has a driver that it did when it was a taxi or an Uber or a lift. And I understand that change happens. And look, I’m a progressive. for change politically, for massive change. I thought Obama did comically little change. Um, but we have to be careful with change. So, which direction is it going to go and how are we going to handle it? Right now, I think Wall Street has lost its mind. How could we be at record numbers? Who do you think’s going to buy your products? So, this guy named Nick Hanower, there’s a lot of folks who believe in this, but he’s a big advocate of it. really smart guy up in Seattle, also an entrepreneur, also sold his business and done well. And he talks about middle out economics. If we give more advantages to the middle class, they immediately spend their money. If you give it to the rich, which is what we’ve done all our lives with this neoliberal nonsense that we’ve been doing, uh, and trickle down economics, well, they barely spend any of it. So, giving to the middle is a much better way to go. And of course, the question is, how are you going to do that? And you don’t just want to give away money. Uh, on the other hand, we give away money to oil companies and big drug companies and every one who’s got excellent army of lobbyists in DC, but we’re not ready. And no one on earth has given me a plan for, oh, Jen, don’t worry. When 10% unemployment hits, which is at this point almost baked in, completely inevitable, right? Um, what are we going to do? 10% unemployment would be worse than anything that’s ever happened in our lifetimes, let alone if you get to 25%. Zero plans for it. None. When that when we hit the iceberg, we’re not going to be ready and it is going to be an epic disaster. There isn’t going to be anyone to buy your goods because employees are also customers and you’re going to lose a massive amount of customers and it is going to absolutely torpedo our economy. I can’t believe how shortsighted Wall Street is. Now, does that mean we stop AI in its tracks and we stop change? No, we can’t stop because it’s it’s true that China is also going, Russia is, North Korea is, Israel is. Now, the problem is if we get it first, then very very likely the Israelis will also have it. And God help the world if that’s true. Uh they have not been restrained in how they use their power and I wouldn’t want them anywhere near that kind of power. But nevertheless, there is a race. So we can’t just stop. So can we do the race in a way that is responsible and actually serves the American voters and citizens instead of just serving the executives of the AI companies and the shareholders of the AI companies? I hope we can, but we’ve taken absolutely zero steps in that direction. So let’s get specific, Jen. What might that look like to to continue developing this technology but do it in a way that’s responsible and benefits everybody? Because this is kind of what I hear a lot of. I hear from one side people saying we need to carry on going or you know the robots and the kids thing. On the other hand I hear we need to be responsible but either side don’t tend to be very specific about what their definition of responsible or a race a responsible race might look like. So does anyone have any specifics? Jenk. Yeah. So look, it’s a it’s a tough uh industry to regulate. I get it. You have to move fast and regulation usually involves some degree of bureaucracy. Um but if you have no regulation at all, you will have it run a muk that’s pretty much guaranteed and all the leaders of the AI companies say likewise. So um we’ve got to the problem here in America is that it’s nearly unsolvable in the window of time that we’re talking about because we’ve lost our democracy in America. We’ve legalized bribery that happened back in Supreme Court decisions in 1976 78 and then of course Citizens United. And so since we have legalized bribery in this country, there’s no way they’re going to serve the voters. So whichever AI companies are giving them more money, they’re going to serve them. And that’s already begun to happen. And the AI companies have already started getting involved in primaries and eliminating their opponents through money and politics. So, our politicians are deeply deeply corrupt in America. Republicans and Democrats, they almost all serve the donor class. So, we we won’t make it. We’ll I’m telling you right now, uh we’re going to run into the iceberg and it’s going to be an epic disaster. The only hope is electing a smart person who’s prepared in 2028. Uh that that can begin to get us on the road. So now when the disaster hits, the AI uh shareholders and executives aren’t going to like it either because the reaction will likely be tremendous anger and then someone like me is going to say, “Hey, you know what? Uh why do they get to keep all the money and you’re all broke and out of a job? They created this cost which is unemployment. Why don’t they pay for it? So why don’t we take some of the billions and billions and billions of dollars that these AI companies have made and put it towards their costs which is the unemployment of the American people. So they could at a minimum fund unemployment insurance and we could make sure that that’s very healthy. Uh and we they could begin to fund other things that might actually help other human beings. I know heaven forend that a millionaire or a billionaire should ever help another human being. But if you don’t the pitchforks are coming. I’m not a pitchfork guy. I’m I believe in nonviolence and I always will. Uh but I don’t think people get the level of anger that’s happening. I’ll try to stop it, but the pitchforks will be significant. And this whole thing of no, I get all the money and you get nothing. Will not play well. You can try it, but it will end in disaster. Kevin, the pitchforks are coming. We’re going to hit an iceberg. And it also sounded like AI is going to ultimately lead to a rise in what sounded like socialism. Wow. Jake’s a real Debbie Downer today. You know, this has been forecast in the American economy. Every 20 years, it’s the end of the free world as we know it. And that’s not what happens. Let’s go back and do a little factchecking on Jakester here. First of all, AI companies lose billions. They don’t make any money right now. They’re in a race, as we talked about earlier, against China primarily. They’re raising a ton of capital and losing billions every year. We don’t know yet how they’re going to monetize it, but the market’s willing to provide it because they see the productivity opportunity and the cure for cancer and the democracy around education and productivity for the nation already been proven by record earnings in the S&P of which all 11 sectors have adopted the first wave of AI to enhance productivity and reduce costs. We don’t know yet what new jobs are going to be created. I’ll just talk about the ones I’m creating in Utah. 4,000 construction jobs for about 9 and a half years highpaying. And another 2,000 engineering and support jobs, extremely highpaying, because what’s now a desert will be a data center. not near anybody’s backyard, not replacing farmland, not using any of the water the way the people have been talking about, not taking any energy from Utah, but in fact contributing to it, not polluting the air cuz we can’t do that without air permits. All of this stuff is a falsehood. So, what we don’t know, and Jake’s right about this, is no one ever predicts with a new technology what the outcome is. So, I’m not a doomer on this stuff. My job here is to maintain a direct focus on entrepreneurship, hire as many people as I can because that’s what I do. And I take a lot of flak. I mean, Jake’s hitting me hard today and and I appreciate he’s an intelligent guy and he’s got an opinion and I’m glad we’re in this narrative and having this discourse. It’s important, but let’s deal with fact, not rhetoric. and not hysteria because I still go back to the robots eating the babies because that’s all all I listen to every day. It’s just ludicrous. And I don’t think robots are actually going to do as much as people think or look the way they think. They’re not going to be humanoid walking around taking out your garbage. That’s not how it’s going to work. Robots have been building cars for decades now and doing other things in medical research. and robotics have been used in all kinds of technologies and chipm and everything else, but they don’t they don’t look like people walking around. So, you know, I I say to myself, we don’t know what we don’t know, and that’s fair, but to say that all of these AI companies are making billions of dollars. And something else, and Jake knows this, most of the taxes in America are paid by the rich people. they pay their fair share now. So if you take it past 50% like California, like New York, like New Jersey, like Massachusetts in the Constitution of America with the forethought of the founding fathers, they believed in the competition of states. And so you have people moving Schultz to Florida, you know, the Google guys to Florida, some have gone to Texas. If you want to steal rich people’s money, go ahead. They’ll just move. And if you really make it difficult for them in every state in America, they’ll do what they did in England. They’ll find a new America. That’s what made America great to over 200 years ago. Taxation, it doesn’t work. The thing about socialism and communism is you run out of other people’s money very quickly because they simply leave. The French figured that out. That’s what happened any in England when they raised 90% tax rates. Monaco, I mean, it only exists because the French screwed the rich French guys and they all moved four miles across the border. It’s very simple. You want to support entrepreneurship and job creation. Only onethird of the population in America can be entrepreneurs and they employ the other twothirds. That’s the way it’s been for 200 years and it’s a great thing. And I don’t see anybody else investing money anywhere else except America 52% of the time. 52 cents of every dollar on earth from sovereign wealth comes to America because it has the opportunity. No other country. I don’t see a lot of people saying, “Boy, would I like to invest in North Korea? Hey, can you get me into Russia? Is there a Russian fund I can invest in? Oh, can I invest in Cuba?” I don’t think so. I don’t want to put my money there for retirement. That’s why I’m talking about this. The facts are the facts. Get over it. Inhale. Everybody chillax and let’s keep the American dream going. Jen, I’ll get your response to that. Many things said there. I mean, the core argument there is if you try and tax rich people, they’re going to leave and go somewhere else and, you know, we might end up like Cuba. Yeah. So, I did I miss this meme about the robots eating the kids because I don’t know why they I love the robots eating the kids. I just don’t think it’s gonna happen. I don’t think anybody thinks it’s going to happen. It sounds like it was made up. Um, okay. So, there’s some fear-mongering about robots eating kids and how America’s going to turn communist or something. No, no, no. Look, as I said, we’re capitalists. We’re just trying to figure out what’s the best way to do this. Capitalism isn’t supposed to be let’s crush the average guy and make sure the corporate CEOs get everything. I’m a corporate CEO, but it’s not right and it’s not balanced and it’s not American. The American way is to make sure that we build a super strong middle class that are great, productive citizens, voters, and by the way, consumers, right? And so if we lose track of that, then we’re all going to be doomed. So, like Kevin’s so worried that somebody’s going to take his money. And it’s not just Kevin. They always like threaten us like, “Oh, oh yeah, we’ll leave. I mean, don’t threaten me with a good time.” Uh, but but beyond that, okay, but beyond that, Kevin, that’s not going to be your main problem. When you don’t have any consumers, that’s going to be your main problem. You have to protect the American middle class. That, you know, you could argue that’s the goose that lays the golden eggs. And you guys keep chipping away and chipping away at that middle class. And so right now, Stephen, this late into the conversation, still no plans on what to do with inevitable massive unemployment. And what I’m telling you is we’re not going to go necessarily to communism, but we are going to wonder, wait, why is everyone unemployed and and only a couple of people have reaped billions or trillions of dollars? So, and and and come on, Kevin. You know, you know how uh the economy works and the markets work. Yes, you invest into it in the beginning and that’s why right now they’re theoretically losing billions of dollars. Same exact thing that happened to Amazon and then later you make billions and maybe even trillions. That’s why their stock prices are so high. And so they’re powered by that investment and later they’ll reap the rewards. And when they reap those rewards, it’s fair to ask who got you those rewards. It’s not to say that the entrepreneurs didn’t and the employees and the shareholders of those companies didn’t, but there were other factors involved, including all of the American government and the American people that supported the infrastructure that made that happen. That conversation is going to be inevitable when we have tens of millions of people unemployed. And and guys, there’s one other factor that’s involved there. When you have a lot of unemployed young men sitting around, usually what happens is nothing good. Wars happen, crime goes up. We have to be prepared. And all I’m hearing from the AI industry is like, as Kevin said, chillax. Don’t sweat it, bro. Don’t worry. We’re going to have all the money and then you guys, I don’t know, you’ll figure it out and I’ll be in Monaco. Monaco. That was hilarious. Monaco.

So maybe that’s where the child eating robots are. Uh, so Kevin, be careful. Kevin, your thoughts on that? No. No. there’s, you know, saying there’s no answers and we’re we’re being asked to just chillax. I think Kevin, you do acknowledge that there will be a change in the occupation mix in America, right? Even as a a founder and CEO myself and as a business owner that employs hundreds of people, I am thinking differently about especially entry- level positions in a way that I wasn’t honestly 6 months ago before some of the models got more advanced, especially as it relates to things like coding. But I’m thinking very, very differently about who to hire. And actually, one of the things I find myself naturally doing is the person that still is on the cold face of hiring in my company is when I see entry- level positions, the first thing I’m looking for is if they have an AI proficiency. And there are candidates now, even for me, at entry- level positions that I’m not selecting for because I realize that someone with an AI proficiency in that exact same role is now like a 5 or 10x person. And so, I I’m just experiencing myself making different hiring decisions as a founder. And I’m I’m sure you are as well. People think that engineers are going to be replaced by AI codew writing. Uh claude is one of the tools being used right now. But actually most engineers aren’t hired to write code. They’re hired to solve problems. They use code to try and solve those problems. So you know companies that have been firing people, everybody’s attributing it to AI. It’s not true. There’s been a lot of fat in a lot of these companies that hired trying to assume what would happen next. They got it wrong. So I don’t think we’ve yet seen what the outcome is going to be. I tend to be the optimist as I talked about other technologies in the past being loathed for the fact that they cause disruption. There is no question AI is disruptive. Um, Kevin, did you see this week Figure AI, which is one of the humanoid robot companies, did a live stream for I think it was 4 days where they just showed a robot um on a sort of factory floor sorting out parcels for four straight days and it it did it better and faster than humans doing it. This was a humanoid robot. And so the one of the things I think about is if you listen to someone like Elon Musk who’s made a prediction, this is a direct quote from him. My prediction is that there will be far far more robots like intelligent robots in the world than there will be people. Longterm I think the ratio of humanoid robots will be more like 2:1. There might be two humanoid robots or more for every one human. And when you when you think about Elon Musk’s predictions over time, to his credit, sometimes his time frames are wrong. But when he says the rocket is going to land on the chopsticks, the rocket eventually lands on the chopsticks. when he says, “My car in LA, my Tesla will eventually drive itself without me interfering,” the car eventually drives itself. So, with Elon’s track record in predicting what he’ll be able to do with technology, I think he’s got a pretty solid track record. So, when he says these humanoid robots are going to be better at surgery or cleaning or whatever than humans in short order, sometimes predicting, you know, time frames of 2027, 2028, I tend to believe him. Is he lying? Because if he’s telling the truth, what we’re seeing is both the disruption of intelligence, but also one could say the disruption of our muscles at the same time. And I can’t think of a comparable like the industrial revolution where humans like two real um sort of professional productivity driving forces of their brains and their their physicality are being disrupted at the same time. And just to give you another story to overlay onto this, my co-founder in my company called Third Webb, big company, we’ve raised 30 odd million dollars. It’s out in San Francisco. I went down to his his uh entrepreneurship accelerator. I’ve not been there in 2 years. And I I arrived and I was like, “Why is everyone building robotics?” And he said to me, he goes, “Stephen, the robot pieces have been here for decades. We’ve always had them. What we’ve been missing and the expensive part was the intelligence.” And he tooured me through this 40,000 square ft um building called Ethink down in San Francisco. And I saw a robot cooking with a robot arm making food. I saw a robot making perfume for you. Whatever perfume you wanted, this big machine that just makes it for you. And he says, because we’ve got intelligence and we’ve always had the machinery, there’s going to be this huge explosion of robotics that we’ve always been waiting for. Intelligence was the missing piece. And now he says it costs pennies. And everyone there is building not software anymore. They’re all building robotics. And so for me, I was like, “Wow, the future’s going to look very, very different. I think in short order than the past.” And I’m just a realist. I’m not trying to be pessimistic or optimistic. I think there’s truth on both sides. But Kevin, do you acknowledge that the jobs that we have today in large part are going to go away. Yeah. You know, I don’t think um shaking a perfume bottle is a great job for anybody, but I do think, and I’ll give you two examples, cuz maybe you’re right about Elon, he doesn’t get a big chunk of his stock unless he populates Mars with a million people. NASA announced 6 hours ago that they’re going to put a permanent plant there on the moon, an established base on the moon. Can you imagine the hundreds of thousands of jobs just those two activities are going to create to actually execute on that highpaying jobs engineers analysts coders everything the manufacturing of facilities to take to Mars to take to the moon I mean everybody wants to talk about the guy shaking perfume bottles losing his job when you’re talking about millions of jobs on new opportunities for mankind that no one even could think about 24 months ago that have been announced today. So, you either have to be a jaker, a doomser, like you know, it’s the end of the free world as we know it and we’re all going to be eaten by robots or you’re in my camp saying the opportunity is so bright I got to wear shades. I got to buy more sunglasses for how bright the future is. This is an unbelievable opportunity we’re talking about. And we’re not wiping out jobs. We’re creating new jobs that are very highpaying and really interesting for people to do. Imagine somebody working on the Mars project or putting data centers in space or expanding the telecommunications on Starlink. I mean, these are the future jobs. No, you know, I think the person that was born to shake perfume would rather have a job getting people onto the moon. Just on this point, Elon, you mentioned Elon’s pay packet. Part of that is he gets that big payout if there are 100 uh sorry, a million humanoid robots um in very short order. And when we think about who you might want to send to Mars, a super intelligent humanoid robot is probably much easier to send than a biological human being for various reasons to do with atmospheric pressure. But if if he’s right on both counts on both this journey to Mars and humanoid robots, presumably it’ll be the humanoid robots going. I just wanted Kevin, can you tell me how you might be wrong? I think that’s quite important because I think it it shows your ability to see both sides of the argument. Is there a case where you could be wrong about this about this unemployment issue? No. How about that for an answer,

J?

Yeah. So, look, I shouldn’t laugh too hard because I’m trying to answer that same question in my head. And Stephen, it’s hard to uh answer it from my perspective because the interregnum is just unaccounted for. So, here’s what I mean by that. So, even if we have Kevin’s beautiful uh sunshine scenario, none of the robots ever eat the children. I don’t know why that keeps coming back in, but anyway. Um, so and and we create all these wonderful jobs in in some uh distant future. Well, okay. Yes. But the nevertheless, the truck driver and the assembly line guy and all those folks already lost their jobs. And the guy who lost his job on an assembly line in Cleveland is not going to be able to become the engineer who figures out how to get on Mars. So, it’s not that he’s not capable of it. he’s just 61 years old and he he can’t learn a whole new profession. So this is an unrealistic conversation. So even if all of the wonderful scenarios about AI are true, it would take minimum 20 years to get to this place where the robots are running everything, we all have leisure time and we just can’t figure out what to do with ourselves and we decide how to get to Venus and and Uranus and wherever else you want to go. Okay. But in the meanwhile, in those 20 years, we had massive waves of unemployment. It is indisputable. Even as Kevin explains it, he says, “Well, you know, you’re not going to be doing doing the perfume shaking, you’re not doing the assembly line, you’re not doing the driving, you’re not doing this, you’re not doing that. All those jobs are going to go.” And in fact, if you actually just listen to folks on Wall Street, they brag about it nonstop. Oh, we’re going to get to, you know, cut 25%. We’re going to have synergies. we’re going to have cost cutting. And then when people say that, everybody gets the analysts get excited and they’re like, “Oh, bye, bye. They’re going to fire all their employees.” And then the other guy goes, “No, no, no. I’m going to fire them even quicker.” And they go, “Bye, bye, bye.” And not once have they thought, “Who’s going to buy the actual products?” And they just don’t have an answer for that. So into into Ragnum, there is going to be upheaval, massive upheaval. And it doesn’t And I’m not a doomsday guy. My god, we have a thing called Operation Hope on on on the Young Turks. Um, we our slogan is get caught trying. No, no, I’m an enormously optimistic guy and I think we can solve these issues, but we got to try to solve them. And I don’t see anyone even trying to solve them now again outside of Roana. Kevin, I spoke to Dra, the CEO of Uber, and I think I’m right in saying that driving is the biggest employer in the world. So when I asked Dra, who’s the CEO of Uber, if they’re going to um create autonomous vehicles very very quickly to automate the 9.4 million drivers that they have, he said that they are. And then I asked him the question, what will those 9.4 million people do? And his response to me, the direct quote is he said, I don’t know. Which is pretty pretty shocking. He also noted that privately he said, “I have to be honest. AI will replace 9.4 million jobs at Uber. Tech executives are not being transparent about AI. They talk behind closed doors about the sheer amount of disruption they anticipate, but they don’t talk about it publicly. Look, I don’t think we’re going to make any progress, more progress on this issue.” So, um, because well, I I think you’re bringing a great point, but the fact is we don’t know what comes next. Much of the reason most people haven’t posted content or built their personal brand is because it’s hard and it’s timeconuming and we’re all very very busy and if you’ve never posted something before there’s so many factors in your psychology that stop you wanting to post what people will think of you am I doing this right is the thing I’m saying absolutely stupid all of these result in paralysis which means you don’t post and your feed goes bare I’m an investor in a company called Stanto which you’ve probably heard me talk about and what they’ve I’m building is this new tool called Stanley that uses AI, looks at your feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks at your history, looks at your best performing posts, and tells you what you should post, makes those posts for you. You can also just use it for inspiration. And sometimes what we need when we’re thinking about doing a post for our social media channels is inspiration. Building an audience has fundamentally changed my life, and I think it could change yours, too. So, I’m inviting you to give this new tool a shot and let me know what you think. All you have to do is search coach.stand.store. store now to get started. Steve, what are you doing? Uh, just making myself a delicious coffee from the freezer. From the freezer. Have you not heard about Contier? No. Oh my gosh. This is going to change your life. A couple of months ago, the founder of this business called Matt sent a big shipment of this coffee to our office in London. What most people don’t know is that the processing of coffee takes out a lot of the taste. So, what they do is they flash freeze it at the optimal moment when it’s most tasty and they send you in the post the coffee in these little frozen ice cubes. Now, Matt sent a big shipment to my office. I moved it to the kitchen. I said to the team, “Knock yourselves out.” And then I saw so many messages in our Slack channel of people going, “Oh my god, what the hell is that? It’s so delicious.” All I have to do is pop it out in the morning using the little button on the back of this thing. I pour my hot water in and I mix it and that is done. You can get $30 off your first order of Cometier coffee if you go to cometier.com/stephven. Try it and please Instagram DM me, LinkedIn me and let me know if you love it as much as I do. One of the things that’s probably going to be a disruptor to AI’s, so I should say America’s ability to pursue these technologies is what’s going on with president approval ratings at the moment. I’ve got this uh graph here in front of me, which you, you know, you don’t need to be able to zoom in to see, which shows that President Trump’s approval rating is declining rapidly in part because of what’s going on in the Middle East. I wanted to get um Jen, your opinion on what all of this stuff is. As someone like me, I don’t really know much about politics. I know that there’s these midterms coming up in November time in the US, um, which is going to be consequential, but from a 30,000 ft perspective, how do I how do I pass out the truth of this war? Because Trump seems to be saying different things. Every day there’s a ceasefire with Iran and then there’s and then they’re bombing again. I think 2 days ago they started bombing again, which they call defensive strikes, and then there’s a ceasefire, and he says there’s a deal about to be done, and then there’s some bombing again. The straight of straight of Hormuse is open, then it’s closed, then it’s I just don’t know what the truth is. Chank, in your opinion, what is the truth? What’s going on? Yeah. So, first let’s start with uh the president’s pony numbers. Yeah, they’ve been uh decimated by this war. They were already in trouble because the Epstein files and he didn’t do anything about affordability. Just gave a massive tax cut for the rich as usual. Did whatever Israel wants as usual. Uh and so now, uh you know, he’s eaten into his own base. So, he’s barely hanging on to a majority of non-MAGA Republicans that voted for him. Only 53% still support him. He’s lost about 20% of hardcore MAGA. Uh his disapproval numbers are at record numbers now. Um 68% of the country thinks we’re going in the wrong direction. Uh he they about 76% of the country is dissatisfied with how the economy is going. And a lot of that is because of the war. And so the war is obviously driving up gas prices which is then uh leading to uh inflation in other areas. Of course a lot of things uh use not just oil and gas but fertilizer which is also been blocked uh through the straight of hormones. So we’re we’re having an energy crisis um actually mainly in Asia and Europe uh more so than than even America. So that’s why the South Koreans are livid at the Israelis that they’re having to cons, you know, conserve gas and go through lean times because Israel wanted this war and literally no one else on planet Earth did. And so shortages in India and this is all before we re-engage and restart the war, which is what I’m afraid is going to come next. So now it’s some folks have a hard time believing this, but we we have to go back to a conversation we had earlier. Remember in America we legalize bribery. So um one uh corporation can give to an infinite amount to a super PAC uh corporate interest, lobbyists, individuals. To give you a sense of the scale of the problem, one family alone uh the Aden family, Miriam and Sheldon Adlesen have given Donald Trump over $317 million in campaign contributions. We used to have a word for that. It was called a bribe. And Trump is so accidentally honest on this stuff, he just can’t keep anything in his head uh from going outside his mouth. So he has said, “Oh, Miriam, she cares more about Israel than America, right?” I’m like, “No, that’s super awkward.” And then he says, “Oh, Sheldon Adles used to come in here and tell me what to do all the time, and then I did it, you know, and I moved the embassy for the Adles, our embassy in Israel.” He’s just, you know, basically selling off our foreign policy. To be fair to him, almost all of our politicians do that. uh Israel gives to 94% of Congress. So there Israel is not some unique lobbyist that uh community that is unseen in the world. No, all the lobbyists do this. That’s why we give $35 billion in uh oil subsidies, which they’re profitable companies. That makes no sense. Why does an average person have to give money to Exon Mobile? That’s insanity. Because big pharma’s lobby is so strong, we can’t negotiate prices. Now, when it comes to Israel, that’s when people lose their minds. And mainstream media goes, “Okay, you’re right about Big Farmer. You’re right about big oil and defense contractors and every other lobby. But if you say the same exact thing about Israel, we’ll call you an anti-semite, cancel you, and you’re never going to ever get another job again. No criticism of Israel is allowed without us doing massive oppression inside this country.” So, we’ve now got Israel that is totally empowered to go, you know, rogue. They don’t follow any laws. They don’t follow the laws of war crimes. They’ve now invaded Lebanon. They say they’re going to take all the way to the Latani River. They’re going to own southern Lebanon. They’ve already ethnically cleansed southern Lebanon, moved out a million people to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Netanyahu on tape bragged about, oh, we used to have 53% of Gaza after the war. Uh, now we have over 60%. So, it was to steal land. That’s what it was about. It wasn’t self-defense. Lebanon’s not self-defense. Israel invaded them. Iran’s not self-defense. We invaded Iran. This war was utterly pointless, especially from an American perspective. Let me tell you what American interests are and what Israeli interests are. And they’re very, very different. And in America right now, because of we started this war, we need the straight of Hormuz open. That’s what’s hurting our gas prices and all of our other prices and affordability, inflation, all of that is connected to the straight of Hormuz. We didn’t have that problem before the war, but now we have it. We’ve got to open it back up. In order to do that, Iran has an enormous amount of leverage. We’ve got to make a reasonable peace deal. Good news. We about to have one over this weekend. And all we want theoretically is for them to take out their to not make nuclear weapons. And they’ve already promised 18 different times that they wouldn’t do that. They did it under the Obama deal. They’ve offered it before the war. They’ve offered it during the war. So that is not an issue. And them promising it doesn’t mean anything. It has to be verified. So what they’re saying is yes, we will have international monitors verify that we will not have a weapon. So that’s the only thing that America said they cared about before the war. So then we’re done and we just killed 49 of their top regime leaders. Trump says we destroyed their navy, their air force, and everything else. We’re done. We have no American interests in there. The only interest left is leave, open up the straight of Hormuz so we can get our economy back on track. Israel, on the other hand, has said they would like, and again this is on tape. Netanyahu said it. They would like to be the only regional superpower in the Middle East. In order to do that, they have to destroy every other power in the Middle East. Now, good news for them. They completely control our Congress and our presidents. So, uh they got us to they literally gave us a list after 9/11 of seven countries they wanted us to attack on their behalf. We have attacked all seven. Iran was the last one on that list. So they want them destroyed so that they can’t fight back when Israel takes more land as they are doing today. They don’t want anyone to be able to defend themselves. They’re going to kill and take land as much as humanly possible. And they want us Americans to pay the bill. They say, “You owe us a genocide. You owe us endless string of wars. You owe us a global war on terror. No, that was a global war on Israel’s neighbors. That cost us $8 trillion. We gave $320 billion to Israel so far already. Lifetime. Why? Why? Why don’t they give us the money back? No. They say, “You owe us. You owe us. You owe us. That’s why we’re in this war. We And by the way, last thing, Stephen, is while we’re all distracted in Iran, Israel has taken southern Lebanon, and now they’re saying they’re going to keep it forever. So that was the point of this war. 100% Israeli interest, 0% American interest. Let’s get out of there. Let’s stop fighting Israel’s wars for them and come back home. What about nuclear weapons? One of the pretenses is that they were weeks away from enriching uranium to a point where that weapon could be used. Yeah. So that’s what Netanyahu has been saying for the last 30 years back in the 1990s. Oh, they’re weeks away. They’re weeks away. Do you know and you probably don’t know because American media pretty much works for Israel. And now when I say that guys, those are not hyperbole. Uh the Israeli lobby donate donates I would say legally bribes like the other lobbies do 94% of Congress. Number one lifetime donor Donald Trump is Israel. Number one lifetime donor to Joe Biden. Number one lifetime donor to Hakee Jeff, Chuck Schumer, Mike Johnson. All of our leaders, their number one lifetime donor is Apac and the Israeli lobby. They completely control our government. And then our media comes and lies to us and says, “Oh, they’re the victims.” Well, we have eyes. We saw Gaza. Gaza is utterly destroyed and Israel did that with our money. That’s insane. So, no, we look is I don’t even think Israel is an ally. I I don’t know why in the world we would ever serve a foreign nation. They’re treading all over us. They’ve taken our sovereignty away. They’ve taken our freedom away. And all we have is these dupes in mainstream media telling us about how they’re doing self-defense. Well, part of self-defense is I take your land. Currently, they’re taping themselves going into IDF soldiers are going into Lebanese homes, Muslims and Christians, stealing all their property. Then they put it on online, go, “How look we stole other things.” Then they destroy the homes and they say, “Now this is Israeli territory.” That’s not self-defense. That’s terrorism. It we are supporting a terrorist nation and we’re giving them hundreds of billions of dollars and this isn’t even helping Israel. were enabling their worst instincts and they’re getting the whole world to hate them. How does that help Israel to have the whole world despise you because you’re so selfishly driving up everyone’s prices and creating endless wars? Literally, no other country on earth wants this war in Iran to continue other than Israel. Kevin, you have a different perspective on the um effectiveness and purpose of the the original strikes that Trump did. Are you supportive of this military operation at large? Well, you know, I’m not a show for uh any politician. I focus on policy because that’s ultimately what survives. Politicians come and go. Policy lingers. I’ve always said that and that’s as an investor what you have to worry about. So, um let’s talk about the situation in the Middle East. For about 49 years, um some people would say 60. It depends what you believed in the early years. The Persians are were a very advanced society in mathematics, poetry, art, you name it. Uh they’re very famous. And then you have this small um I I’m going to call it bad management. I don’t know what else to call it. that took this society, brutalized the people there, created a million um man army run by 150,000 people, a super militia um that caused a lot of chaos in that region with proxies uh as people have been talking about. Um and and the this militia is is paid with cash that’s gotten from um the sales of of energy and they would stop killing their own people if they didn’t get paid. So that the 150,000 that run that country to brutalize the almost 100 million others. I mean it’s a really strange platform that hasn’t worked for the people there for 60 years. But it it was tolerated by all the neighbors until 6 months ago. the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, they they wanted to stay out of it because it was, you know, it was relatively calm. Every 6 months the hoodies or one of the uranium proxies would blow up an oil ship kept the insurance premiums 30% higher and then the proverbial poo hit the fan. Now, China, let’s get down to business, gets 48% of its energy through that straight, as does many other Asian countries. So, they, as Jake pointed out, um, uh, you know, basically are underwater. They don’t have energy, Jack, I should say. So, you know, at the end of the day here, um, there’s a problem. And so, what’s going to happen when this is over? Um, forget about look, you can’t let a a you can’t let a society that 150 people there say, “Let’s kill everybody.” I mean, they’re on a different kind of mandate. They they they’re a little a little strange. You don’t want to give those people a nuclear bomb. I don’t care who you are. They’re just offside. And they they’re happy to kill their own people, but I don’t want them killing everybody else with interbalistic missiles. So, no, they can’t have 90 pounds of rich uranium, and they’re not going to get it. And they’re going to keep getting bombed until they give it up. And at some point, somebody in there is going to say, “Whoa, uh, they’re really we’re getting tenderized in here, and we got to stop this, and we got to get the best deal we can.” We want to stay in power to keep killing our people as long as we can because we’re the 150,000 guys that live very well, and everybody else lives like crap. And that’s just the way that society works. And if the people want to rise up and kill 150 that are killing them, they will one day. I don’t know. But here’s what I think. I think the actual countries around there are going to end up in the same boat that we have in the Suez and Panama Canals where there’s a fee to go through, but it’s managed so that no country, including China, gets to run it. And so that has already found peace and all the shipping lanes are open and the insurance rates are normal there. So, if you’re Saudi Arabia, you got let’s let’s say it costs 5 billion a month to police the strait. Okay, that’s a good number because I’m probably right, pretty close to it. That’s nothing for the UAE and for Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Bahrain. They’re going to need it open. So, if they have to be like the United Nations for that region and keep it open, that’s great. Now, I’m staying long the UAE because I’ve invested there in in ADGM. I have a company there. I’ve got employees there. I talk to them every day. I think this is going to end soon. But I would like to see it in a way that Iran is isolated. Maybe, you know, they’re not they can’t control the strait and they can’t have the nukes. Those are the two things that I think have to be resolved. And then if they want to brutalize their people forever, okay, you know, they’re going to do that. It’s a horrible outcome for those people. I feel terrible for them. But this outcome is a good one if we resolve those two things. New policing of the strait. That would be great because the Chinese need that. They want that. And at some point they’re going to squeeze the heads of these Iranian leaders, whoever they are. They keep getting killed and a new one pops up like whack-a-ole. But that’s just the way that regime works. And nobody’s willing to to say, “Look, I I want to take them over because you got the army still being paid.” But by blocking that straight for the last 60 days, then the the amount of money they’re losing is $210 million US per 24 hours. So at some point, whoever’s running the show there is going to say, “If we can’t pay our soldiers to kill our people, we’re going to be screwed. They’re going to come up to the top of the castle and take Frankenstein out. So we got to make sure we cut a deal.” That’s why I’m optimistic. The price of oil is down almost 16%. It’ll get back near 70. I don’t know what that’s going to do for the midterms because, you know, yeah, the numbers are terrible, but every incumbent gets screwed in the midterms. It’s it’s just the nature of how it works. Now, whether they lose the Senate, I don’t know. Are they going to lose the House? Who knows? But if gasoline’s back to 70 bucks, we won’t be having this narrative about unaffordability around energy in the United States. And you just don’t know. But I do know that the status quo because the UAE and Qatar and Bahrain left those Iranians alone until they rained missiles on them. Now they’re pissed. And so it’s not business as usual. And so I think the the winds of change are going to blow through there. And maybe the upside is the great Persian people get better leadership cuz boy their leaders suck. Jenk, it sounds like an optimistic um outcome is being forecasted by Kevin and I can see you nodding your head there in a disagreement, shaking your head. Yeah. So, look, again, I’m normally an optimist here, but we’ve gotten ourselves uh in some significant ruts here. So, uh first of all, u you know, this whole idea the Iranian regime is bad. Okay. Yeah, it is. Uh, it’s Muslim fundamentalist. I don’t like fundamentalists of any religion. I’m an atheist. Uh, you know, they abuse their people and they’re corrupt. No question about it. Netanyahu is corrupt. He’s up on corruption charges that seem to never come. Uh, the Israeli settlers are religious fundamentalists, biggest lunatics on earth. They think that God said to kill the Palestinians and take their land, and we fund them. We give them billions of dollars. So, I’m not in favor of any of these uh fundamentalists, no matter what religion they’re from. Now, on the issue of nukes uh that you asked about earlier, Stephen, you know that the the reason I brought up American media is because they pretty much do nothing but Israeli propaganda. They never clarified to anyone. You know that Iran doesn’t have a missile that can deliver any warhead to America. It it just doesn’t it’s never had it. It didn’t have it 30 years ago when Netanyahu started saying it. It doesn’t have it today. So, and they never enriched uranium up to 90% which is where you would have to get it for weapons grade. They get up to about 60% and then we destroy their nuclear facilities and Trump bragged about it and now all that’s buried underneath. So where’s the question? They’re not even close. And and again they’ve promised not only to uh this repeatedly in negotiations, but the former Grand Ayatoll, the one we murdered, uh had done a fatwa, the most important religious edict in Shia Islam, and he said we are to never build nukes. So when they Hamas has something in their charter, the Israelis say oh the charter is the most important thing. Then the Grand Ayatollah does a f way import more important than a charter and they go ignore that. Ignore that. No, no, don’t ignore that. And why would Iran ever use a nuke? If they use a nuke, then we either Israel or us would strike back and we’d kill 90 million Iranians. Nobody wants that. They they want you to believe that the Iranians are irrational psychotic terrorists. Boo. They’re Muslims. Oh, that’s super scary, right? No, there is an irrational government in the Middle East. It’s it’s Israel. They’re the Iran did not attack a single neighbor. Israel has attacked seven neighbors. Iran hasn’t asked us for a single dollar. Israel asked us for hundreds of billions of dollars. So there’s one country that is constantly attacking their neighbors and taking land. And by the way, the ter the civilian kill ratio of the IDF is 83%. 83% of the people that they kill are civilians. That is higher than Hamas or Hezblah or any terrorist group on earth. and they kill about a hundred times the civilians of Hamas. So if Hamas is terrorist, it is absolutely indisputable that Israel is a terrorist government. And yet we’re forced to fund that when we don’t have any money. They have universal healthcare. They have free college. They have paid family leave. We don’t have any of that. And then our greedy and corrupt politicians and media tell us that we owe the Israelis more war and more genocide. The reason why I think we’re in a lot of trouble here and is not going to be easy to resolve is every time we get close to peace. Netanyahu calls Trump. Literally happened this weekend. Right after the call, Trump then goes back to wararm mongering. After the call, we bombed Iran. Israel started heavy bombing of Lebanon. And then Trump came up with three new totally impossible things. Give me all the highly arrange enriched uranium on day one. Well, it’s buried under the ground. It’s going to take months to take out. Uh, number two, uh, you all have to join the Abraham Accords. The Abraham Accords, again, American media paints it as, oh, this wonderful peace plan. It’s no such thing. It’s to normalize relations with Israel and start doing trade with Israel without getting a promise back that they’re going to end the occupation. It is betraying the Palestinians and saying the Israelis can permanently occupy them. By the way, again, never talked about in American media, but I we read a lot of this in the Israeli press. And that’s why we get a lot of our information on the Young Turks from them because they actually do pretty good reporting in Israel. And so, uh, one of the things is they believe in Greater Israel. They talk about it all the time. Our press never talks about it, but they do. They know they stole our nuclear secrets. They know they stole our nuclear triggers and our uranium. What kind of an ally steals all of our material? And and so but last thing, Stephen, the most important impossible thing was Netanyahu demanded, he made this public, that everyone else stop fighting except Israel, that they have a right to keep attacking and invading and taking southern Lebanon. Well, that’s not a peace deal. Nobody’s going to sign on to that. So, and and Israel has said no matter what happens, they’re going to keep attacking Lebanon. That means even if Iran and America make a peace deal, Israel will literally ruin it on a first day. So we can’t ever get to peace as long as we’re allies with Israel. It’s literally impossible. They’re massive wararm mongers and they say we need endless wars. And by the way, it makes sense cuz they’re a settler colony. In order for a settle settler colony to expand, you need permanent war so they can keep taking more land. We shouldn’t be funding these terrorists. We have a way of getting out. This is what you do. You just say, “Hey, we make a peace deal with Iran. We take Israel out of it. Israel, you want peace, you have peace. If you want war, have war with Iran. It’s not our business.” So, what’s what what are you predicting, Jenk, is going to happen? What is your prediction? Disaster. A positive disaster. So, there’s no way we’re going to get to peace because Israel says their line in the sand is they’re going to keep attacking Lebanon. As long as they keep attacking Lebanon, Iran is not going to get to a peace deal. What does disaster mean specifically? Oh, disaster means we re-engage in the bombing. We have 50,000 ground troops on those ships. People forgot that we’re there. Of course, it has to be American ground troops. It can’t be precious Israeli ground troops cuz Israeli lives are apparently worth more than American lives if you listen to American politicians. So, we have the ground troops there. We’re going to very likely do more disastrous bombing of Iran. And then Iran is going to bomb the oil and gas fields in of the Gulf countries. And then not only will gas prices go absolutely through the roof and cause a massive economic recession, perhaps depression worldwide, but on top of that, then uh they’re going to say, “Well, it’s not enough. We want more.” And the infrastructure is already destroyed. It’s going to take 5 to 10 years to rebuild that infrastructure. They’re going to do permanent damage to our economy. Why? They want more land. Enough. enough with supporting the terrorists. Kevin, is it fair to say if you look at what Trump said over since the start of this war that he miscalculated this because he gave us a window of time when it would be over and that window of time is now long gone. And it appears to me like he thought it would be similar to Venezuela where you could just go in there boom boom boom regime change you control the country. But that’s clearly I mean just like a logical impartial person that’s kind of like how it looks. This is different because this war is what I would call the first tech war um ever. A lot of the ordinance being used um is with very advanced GPS systems controlled from space. We’ve learned something else uh which is rather interesting. The I learned this from my own employees that are sitting in Abu Dhabi and Dubai. The drones that came over in the first four weeks, those waves every morning were basically carbonfiber wings with lawnmower engines on them and and very inexpensive to make about $35,000. and we shot them down, or at least the UAE did, with American ordinance between a million2 and $3 million per missile on a $35,000 homemade drone. And so it goes back to um wow, I hope the Pentagon has enough compute power because I wouldn’t want that in the hands of the Chinese cuz I I what I’ve learned from this conflict and look, you know, people dying is horrible. Period. Wherever they are, it’s just horrible. But this is not a traditional war. I don’t know if there’s going to be boots on the ground by the time this is over. If there’s another wave of conflict, it’s just going to be more ordinance taking out more infrastructure until the 150,000 people running the show there say, “Wow, this is really hurting us in terms of maintaining control.” I don’t see uh a boots on the ground invasion. I just see more tenderizing and more tenderizing. It’s expensive because we’re on the wrong side of defense. We need the cheap drones. And I think in two years from now, from what I see in the development, because I I see these deals all over the place, there’s a whole bunch of new tech being developed around drone blocking technology and very inexpensive versions of what those Iranians built, better than lawnmower engines, though. So, it’s it’s going to be pretty interesting in 24 months. I’m not a fan of war, but I have a different view of the outcome here. And I think that part of the world is going to be stabilized and funded by the neighbors there. And probably everybody’s better off because the Chinese can’t take the pain much longer. Their oil supplies, both on the water and in storage, are starting to really dwindle. And if I’m the big supreme leader there, I’m thinking to myself, I’m going to call those guys in Iran, say, “Okay, big boys, time to settle. We’ve had enough.” Cuz that that is actually a different view of that policy over there. Because every Asian country is hurting. And by the way, in North America, we actually don’t have any problems with energy. We have an abundance of it, including the stuff coming from Canada, the number one import. The problem we have is the price of oil is determined by world markets. It’s a commodity in US dollars. You know, it was 106. Now it’s 9712, whatever it is trading right now. Um it’s but we’re not going to run out of energy in America. That’s not going to happen. It’s it’s the rest of the world to the extent that we care about them. Um we got to resolve this issue. For every founder, there comes a point in building a company where your job shifts from being the person inside your business actioning everything to the person responsible for absolutely everything. The only way I’ve been able to make this shift across the different companies and teams I’m responsible for is by knowing that the right systems are in place to manage everything. Systems that don’t need me in order for them to work. Our sponsor, Pipe Drive, is one of those systems, an easy to use, intelligent CRM tool for growing sales teams. My teams use it and have for the last decade because it’s genuinely the most effective way to run a sales operation. Through one dashboard, you get every deal visible and every stage of the sales process is clear and what needs to happen next is all there in real time. When a system like this works, you don’t need to be in every conversation to know exactly if your business is moving forward, where and what the blockers are. Over a 100,000 companies are already running their sales on it. So, if you’d like to join them, sign up at piperive.com/ceeo, where you’ll get an exclusive 30-day free trial instead of the usual 14 days. No credit card is needed. That’s piperive.com/ceo.

I’ve done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for 2 3 hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO. We’ve taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO. We have put the question here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the diio conversation cards. And it is incredible what happens. These are great if you’re in a romantic relationship and you want to connect your partner more. These are also great if you’re in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say they’re also great for families that want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world in the analog environment connecting human to human. It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do. Go to the diary.com and you can get these conversation cards right now. The thing that I think America’s at risk of running out of Kevin though is is is patience and uh support. And if you think about the sort of existential risk to Trump, he you know, if you looking at these numbers, so this this first line you see is his disapproval going up and his approval going down. If I’m the supreme leader in Iran, I go, “Listen, this guy has got I mean, there’s an election in 2028 in the United States. This guy has got months.” So, in terms of you talk about, you know, the art of a deal and doing a good deal, if you know your counterparty in the deal negotiation literally has months to do a deal or they are going to be thrown out of power, if I’m one of those 150,000 people or the Supreme Leader, honestly, I’m going to wait it out. I think I have all the cards. if you have almost no, you know, they can survive. Again, you said they oppress their people. They don’t seem to have much morality surrounding that. Could they wait it out a couple of months knowing that Trump can’t because the midterms are coming and then the election’s coming? I think you’re making a good point on that one. But I, you know, the one thing I would say, Stephen, is that it’s not just Trump you’re waiting out. You got Chi, it’s it’s not just Trump, the big guy. You got two supreme leaders. You got whoever is running the show this week in Iran and you’ve got the Chinese leader, the supreme leader. And the only way he gets to say the supreme leader is people eat, people have jobs there and his economy stays buoyant. That’s the only way he stays in power. So you’re you’re serving two masters. You’re you’re trying to time the 28 decision you talked about versus how pissed off the big guy is going to get in China. He has no choice. 48% of his energy comes through that straight at some point. I think before November, Elsa Supreo in China squeezes Iranian heads like teenage pimples. That’s what I think is going to happen. The other thing just to give you the other thought that’s been spiraling in my head since I’ve interviewed all these people on this subject is that Trump and JD Vance repeatedly say they don’t even know who they’re negotiating with because they’ve knocked out every layer it seems of leadership. They on one hand brag about that but then I would also suggest that that makes negotiation hard. I think JD Vance actually talked about or Marco Rubio talked about the fact that they can’t get the carrier pigeon to the um Iranian soldiers that are still shooting the missiles. And this talk this speaks to the um lack of organization in Iran because you’ve wiped out all the leadership. So I even wonder if you can really do a deal at this point with Iran, Jenk. No, we can remember we almost had a deal this weekend. Uh and the deal is actually kind of obvious. Open up the straight of Hormuz. We lift a blockade. Iran says uh we’ll find the highlyenriched uranium and hand it over. We won’t have a weapons program and we’ll have international monitors for the uranium that we enrich to just energy levels, not weapons levels. Boom. Done. Easy. Though, but as I explained before, we can’t get it done because Israel says, “No, I want permanent.” How do you know it’s Israel? How do you know it’s Israel, Jenk? Yeah, there’s no question. So first of all in the before the invasion New York Times with a rare good article that explained uh that Netanyahu and the head of Mossad um came into the situation room Netanyahu physically and had Mossad uh through a teleconference and they uh told Trump you got to attack you got to attack now and they to they at least as the New York Times describes it they convinced them. Whether they actually convinced him through language or through money or through blackmail is a whole different question. But uh another thing that’s absolutely clear is that after every call with Netanyahu, Trump goes from saying we’re going to have peace to saying we’re not going to have peace and we’re have these new impossible standards. It’s happened about half a dozen times so far. It’s super clear that Israel is driving the bus. Plus, you could see it based on the facts on the ground. We have no interest there. We have a deal ready to make for American interests. Israel says, “No, we’re not done because we need southern Lebanon and we need Iran to be completely decimated.” This idea that Kevin’s talking about, to be fair to Kevin, almost everybody in in America thinks in this, well, now to be unfair to Kevin, this fantasy world where the regime in Iran is just going to give up. It’s never going to happen. We already tried to regime change it. It it didn’t work at all. They have an enormous infrastructure set up. So it doesn’t really matter how many people you knock off at the top. Somebody else rises up. Somebody else rises up out of that 150,000 people that that Kevin’s talking about. Now China, he’s got a theory that maybe China puts pressure on him. That’s not a crazy theory. I get it. At the same time, China’s looking at Russia and America and going, “Look at these schmucks. Russia is wasting their entire military and resources in Ukraine. And now America’s totally wasting their military and resources in Iran. And these two other knuckleheads keep punching themselves in the face. Meanwhile, we haven’t started any wars if you’re China. And so we haven’t had any of those costs. We haven’t had any of those troubles. We don’t have that PR problem. So when we go into Africa or Latin America and we say, “Hey, you know what? We’re going to build roads and bridges for you guys and America’s going to come and bomb you. So which one do you want to do a deal with?” Now a lot of them are saying, “No, we want to do a deal with China.” because they don’t do war. Uh instead they build infrastructure. Look, it just is a business strategy, an economic strategy that is much much smarter. But we can’t go into a smart strategy because Israel won’t let us. Every time we go towards peace, Israel blocks it. And today, this weekend, we had both Republicans and Democrats go out and say we shouldn’t do the peace deal. You want to know what the one connective tissue? Every one of those politicians had over a million dollars given to them by the Israeli lobby. So that’s just the stone cold reality of it. And so in terms of energy here at home, Kevin says we’re not going to run out. But he also acknowledged that no, wait a minute, that has nothing to do with anything. We oil goes into a world market and it is controlled by world prices. So the fact that we’re so-called energy independent means nothing. That’s not even our oil or gas. It’s Exxon Mobile and Chevrons. So they could sell it anywhere they want and they do sell it anywhere they want. The only way to get them to sell it exclusively in America is to do socialism and say you’re not allowed to sell that oil anywhere else. I don’t think Kevin wants that. So that means we are definitely not energy independent. We are definitely tied to global oil prices and that means again more disaster. When you get to tech, oh my god, the Israelis used AI in Gaza. They did this uh program called Where’s Daddy. AI would pick a target uh that was maybe connected to someone in Hamas at some point, but they did, you know, he called this guy and the other guy called other guy and that lady now has a cell phone. Good enough. But they would wait till their target went home so they would bomb the house and kill their entire family. If that’s the future of tech in the military, we’re all doomed. So, they’ve been testing all of this stuff in Gaza and now they’re doing in Iran. What I’m worried about is what Larry Ellison said. He said, “Oh, we now can track all citizens anywhere and we’re going to bring that technology to America.” I don’t want their surveillance state. I don’t want anything to do with the Israelis. Let’s just come home and serve American interest. That’s what I keep see. But the good news, Stephen, is almost all the voters agree. 80% of Democrats now have a negative view of Israel and say, “No, take care of American voters first. When you get to under 50 years old in all parties, Israel now has a negative 45 rating. The only people left in this country who still want to serve Israel are our politicians and our media. That’s it. The rest of us can’t stand them anymore and the endless wars they drag us into and all the money they take from us.” And Kevin, as a businessman, what are we doing? Why are we letting this country the size of their population is the equivalent of Papa New Guinea lead us around by the nose and get us into endless wars? You know, this war in Iran isn’t helping us. And and if they continue and they bomb the infrastructure in Iran and the Gulf countries, you know, it’s going to take 5 to 10 years to rebuild and it is going to be a global economic disaster. What are we doing? We got to get rid of the Israelis. I don’t mean that in a physical way. just get them out of our government and make decisions based on what’s good for America, we’ll be 10,000 times better off and then we could end the war. I think if there was a path to peace in the Middle East, it’s one of the largest consumer markets on earth. Just Iran itself has 100 million people. They buy stuff. And you know, I think about the future of a global economy if there was stability there, uh, including peace with Israel and their neighbors. That would be an amazing market, a huge market. And one of the reasons that people like me keep a foothold or a footprint in the UAE, it is and was the capital of capital until 9 weeks ago. And I think it’ll return at some point. That’s a the the size of the market in Egypt, Jordan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, I mean, and Iran are they’re just huge. And those people want stuff that we make. I mean, you know, it’s that pragmatic. It’s that So, if you could have peace and stabilize and you want to sell stuff, that’s a massive market. And and I, you know, that’s why I remain an optimist on how this gets resolved because at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what religion you are or, you know, what country you’re in or what geography you came from. Most people, and I would say 99% want to raise a family, have a job, and enjoy life. They don’t want to get blown up. And so, I’m I’m kind of an optimist that it’s in everybody’s interest to solve this. It’s kind of like the the human condition is I’d like to get, you know, I’d like to form a family unit and I’d like to live a peaceful life and I’d like to buy stuff. I want to be a consumer. So, I’m uh in the camp that says, look, I don’t know how this thing gets resolved. Nobody does. I’m disappointed that there’s no peace deal this weekend, but hopefully there’ll be one soon. But in the end, most people want peace, period. Unless you’re, you know, you’re crazed as a crazed leader and you just want to kill everybody. Those people don’t last that long. They don’t seem to, well, they’re certainly not lasting that long in Iran right now, but you’re right. They keep popping up. But at some point, I don’t know. Oh, I think uh peace is a better deal for everybody. There should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribed, you’re already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you’re not yet. And if you’re not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button. It helps the show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you’re someone that watches our show, but you haven’t yet hit that button. Thank you so much, Kevin. Um, based on that, based on both our conversation on AI and also how unpopular this war is, what we’re seeing across the world at the moment is this rise in socialism in Western markets. We’re seeing it in the UK, we’re seeing it around Europe, and we’re also seeing it in the United States. Positive views of capitalism amongst all Americans has dropped to an all-time low according to a poll done by Gallup. um a massive almost 70% of Democrats now view socialism positively with only 40% roughly view capitalism favorably. And again, this was at the end of last year. So these stats aren’t even factoring in the war. And a staggering 62% of young Americans hold a favorable view of socialism as well. So as we head towards the midterms, but also the elections, which aren’t actually that far away now, it’s quite clear to me as someone that, you know, I I’m an entrepreneur in the United States. I I live in Los Angeles, as you know. Um I build businesses. It’s quite clear to me that we’re on the verge of a very different type of America and we’ve seen you know um Zhan Mandani be elected in New York and we’re seeing this sort of socialistic nar narrative spread like wildfire I think heavily fueled by both wars but also by technology AI and sort of wealth inequality. Do you agree that if things continue on this trajectory we’re heading towards a more socialist America? No. What I agree on is I’m I’m a history buff. Um you can go back into the uh 40s and 50s. It seems every 17 to 20 years we take um a dip back into socialism and back in those days communism even in New York and Brooklyn longing for what the Soviet Union had or Cuba had in its heyday. Um and then the outcome is always the same. It doesn’t work. And so it it really you have all these different ideas about how a country should run and what works best for all the faults that US has now and the debates we have and you know AOC and Bernie Saunders and Elizabeth Warren and all this rhetoric and I get it. I mean they’re they’re very successful politicians. I love AOC. She just spews out stuff and raises five bucks at a time. You know it’s smart. It’s a great social media strategy. And same with Bernie. I mean, the guy But will she be president of the United States? I don’t think so. And will Bernie get there? No. Why does everybody leave Massachusetts, including my son, because you can’t raise any money there to start a company? The super tax is stupid. And so, it it’s sort of it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a mixing pot of ideas and competition. But in the end, and I always say this to my students because I I what I find so interesting about, you know, a 20 a cohort of 23 year olds that I teach in in business classes and injury classes, they’re all socialists, all of them, until they get their first paycheck. Then they become capitalists when they see something called tax. And they wonder, “Wait a second. Wait a second. Where’d half my salary go? What’s this?” And I say, “That’s tax. Now, if you want it to be 80% tax, you follow that trail that you had before I started teaching you, you were a socialist. And now, what are you? Well, I can’t pay 50% tax. No kidding. Well, move to Austin, move to Tennessee, you move to Florida like everybody else is doing, and you’ll pay 16%. And so, I love the fact that everybody’s an idealist socialist until they get their first paycheck. And that’s how America works. It’s a wonderful thing. And I say it’s good because you all everybody has a vote. We continue to believe in that. And I think the debate rages on and it’s great. And everybody has an opinion. I have mine, others have theirs. And I love to be part of discourse. You know, one of the reasons I keep doing what I do is I love to get into the [ __ ] with everybody. I like to say the things I say because I really believe them. And I’ve been there before. I’m wise. I’ve seen this movie before. That’s what I tell my students and it freaks them out. Just a yes or no answer in this question. So, in 2028, do you think another capitalistic sort of focused candidate will win the election or do you think a Democrat or a socialist will? I don’t think socialism is going to is socialism going to make it in America at the uh in the office of the White House. I think the pendulum always swings. The Biden administration went way too far in one direction. and it snapped back. Now, you might argue it went too far the other way and it snaps back. The whole idea of midterm gives you the smell test of the direction which is coming up just months away and then you’ll see who emerges. I don’t think we know who the next president of the United States is going to be, him or her. We don’t know who’s going to emerge. What’s your sense though, Kevin? You’re you’re pred you’re a man that makes predictions. Is it Democrat or is it Republican in your view? Got to give me a straight answer here. I I I wouldn’t even make that guess. It’s It’s so difficult. I really don’t know. I I I really think that in my view, the Democrats have lost their way. I would like to see them find a new leader that’s more moderate. I don’t think you can spew socialism and get elected. You got to find somebody that is in the middle that is more pragmatic about providing jobs. I mean, look at California. What a mess that place is. It’s just they may actually they may hire a Republican mayor out there. I mean, that’s going to be a shakaroo for LA, but it’s gotten pretty bad. I work out there. It’s a you can’t even wear your watch at daytime anymore. I mean, it it’s a mess. It’s a mess. It’s a a lawless wasteland. It has poor management, no executional skills with the politicians. I mean, you know, you’re lucky to be you work there. You know what I’m talking about. Jenk, what’s your point of view on that socialism? Is it coming to America midterms 2028? It’s a lot to talk about there. So, look, I I’m not a fan of Karen Bass. I voted against her before. I probably vote against her again in this mayor’s race. Uh, and so I think that sometimes Democrats uh like to get mired in their bureaucracy and not push for enough change. So, uh, so I’m not a person who just uh supports Democrats no matter what. In fact, I criticize Democrats a lot on the Young Turks. Uh but no, you’re not going to get your watch stolen in LA. Uh I have a family. We go out all the time. It’s perfectly safe. Uh so for a little while between 2019 and 2023, crime really did rise in some of the big cities. We talked about on the air who were very honest about it. It took some heat from the left on it, but crime’s gone down significantly in 24 and 25. So I don’t think those are real issues anymore. In terms of uh our economic model, we need a couple of clarifications here. So, as I said earlier, we we really do corporatism in America. And another word for that or phrase for it is crony capitalism. So, we’d be lucky to get back to capitalism, let alone going all the way to socialism because right now we don’t have capitalism. We don’t have free markets. We have uh every industry has captured the government. They’ve bribed all of our politicians. We can’t negotiate prices. Uh these are the I mean, that is the most socialist thing I’ve ever heard except socialism for corporations. It’s mindbending. And that’s and that’s what corporatism is. It’s totally run a muck now. And why is that? Because of money and politics. So in order to fix all of these problems and to get back to real free markets and capitalism, you have got to get the money out of politics. If you don’t do that, you’re just on a treadmill of corruption and it never ends. And you get BS guys like Biden and Trump who come in and tell you that they’re going to drain the swamp and then they fill it up even more and even more. So they and they serve all their donors. So in terms of socialism, we never define what it means. And the reality is most governments are mixed economies. Not most governments, almost all governments are mixed economies. So when we say socialism, are we talking about Cuba or are we talking about the Netherlands? Cuz you could argue that Northern Europe does socialism. Uh they have a lot more things that are public rather than private. But do they have private businesses? Of course they do. Right? So I would argue that democratic capitalism is the right way to go where we have capitalism but it is checked by democracy. The CEOs and the shareholders look out for the companies and the legislators and the president and the prime ministers are supposed to look out for the citizens and check the corporations so they don’t run a muck. I think Northern Europe’s probably pretty close to that. In terms of candidates here in America, again, I’d have to say Roana is probably the closest one to that. And so if you go too far left, um I get it that that’s hard, especially on identity politics, which again we’re not a fan of on the Young Turks and we don’t think that’s the right direction to go in and it just divides our country. Uh so I don’t think that that type of far-left candidate can can win a national election. But after what Trump does this to this country, what he’s already done to this country, Republicans, I have one thing to tell you. N there’s no way the the midterms are gone. Nobody’s showing up to vote. Their voter enthusiasm is gone, obliterated. And by 2028, we’re going to have the disaster from the war and disaster from AI, unemployment. So they they only have one guy who could win, and I’m worried about it, and that’s Tucker Carlson. If Tucker runs in the Republican primary, he definitely wins that primary. You can quote me on it and then you could have Kevin laughing and you could rerun that tape. It’ll be great. In fact, back in 2016, I was on ABC’s This Week was Stephanopoulos. They asked the whole panel who’s going to win. At that point, they just won the Democratic National Convention and Hillary Clinton had a 10-point lead. I was the only one on the panel to say Donald Trump was going to win. And they all laughed out loud. Populists win. the people chasing after the donors, whether it’s Israel or big farmer or any of the other donors that nobody nobody likes those people. Kla Harris lost because she was bragging about how she had 90 corporate CEOs on her side. I got bad news for her. Nobody likes corporate CEOs. Sorry, Kevin. Sorry me. But the reality is that’s what every poll shows. It is deeply deeply unpopular and these days it’s pretty merited. So if if you got someone in the right lane, which is democratic capitalism, I think they win. We just got two minutes left. Kevin, uh you laughed there at the suggestion that Tucker Carlson might win. I know Tucker. I just did a thing with him this week. It was really interesting because he’s taken a a very um uh controversial view about AI and that’s the debate we had. And he has obviously shifted his focus uh from being proTrump to something else. But, you know, I have to admit uh when I think about it, that is a possibility if he would uh align himself. I’m not sure what party he represents anymore. I think he is a selfproclaimed Republican, but um that’s interesting idea. The more I think about it, I can’t I can’t I know I laughed at it, but I’ve been thinking about it for the last couple of minutes. Yeah. I mean, the guy has a massive base. um he has a his own network now, which is something you kind of need these days in uh you need a really strong social media base to play um in politics and and to and to fight the fights in the seven states. You really got to have a good organization on social. So, I mean, I think it’s going to be fascinating. Um I think we’ll get a pretty good indication of what the themes will be in November. Uh affordability obviously remains a big one. um border remains a big one in in the US but AI could emerge as as a big one too. I mean it may be but I I think by then um I always look at these big you know AI kind of burst on the theme but it’s not really about data centers and power it’s about jobs I think is where it’s going and I don’t know if that gets resolved by you can always be a fearonger about the robots eating the babies and maybe that is an election issue I don’t know we’ll see it’s going to be interesting though cuz it it wasn’t an issue until 6 months ago. Jen, last word before we close out. Yeah, so look, I don’t think that a pro-Israel candidate can win. Uh, and so, but all of our politicians are trained to be pro-Israel. And apparently they have trouble reading polls. So, uh, I think that that, you know, a populist right versus populist left would in a sense be a dream. Um, because either way, you hope that they I mean, the key has to be that they have to be real. I mean, we’re so tired of these fake politicians in America. They never do what they say they’re going to do. They always back the donors. But if you got two honest guys, and by the way, maybe it’s Kana versus Massie, and that would be amazing. Or maybe it’s Kana and Massie, but there’s two guys who were clearly honest in Congress. And you know, I can name Bernie as my third. I’m going to struggle on the fourth one. So, there aren’t that many choices. So maybe we go populist, we go independent, and we go in a new direction because God knows that America needs a new direction. Kevin Jenk, thank you so much for the time. Um, I’ve been a fan of both of you for many, many, many years. I was saying to Jen before we started recording that I think I’ve watched Young Tuck since I was 19. And when I say watched, I mean really, really watched, not not casually saw it, but I would watch it almost daily when I was going through uh building my businesses and sort of coming into the professional world. So thank you so much, Jen. It’s a pleasure to have spent this time with you and Kevin. Again, I’ve been, you know, my my my favorite shark for I think 15 years now. Um, for many, many, many reasons. Thank you to both of you. Um, I really really appreciate it. And hopefully we’ll have this discussion again soon once all of this plays out because the answer to a lot of these questions has been I don’t know. And we shall see. So, we shall see. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot.

In the in the football career, you go through a lot ups and downs and a lot of uh difficult moments. And uh let’s say the ones that suffered most family

[ __ ] they um they see your good moments, your bad moments, your good side, your bad side also, but uh they always stand by you. Your time at Manchester United’s been a bit of a roller coaster like this. And so on that day when you get a big offer to leave Manchester United for a contract that was worth reportedly 200 million, why didn’t you go? It’s Captain Fantastic. Manchester United’s captain Bruno Fernandez has arguably become their greatest player in the post Ferguson era. There isn’t a single player in the Premier League who has more assists since his arrival. He’s won more club player of the year awards than Ronaldo, and only five players have scored more than his 70 league goals. So, I’m at the Manchester United training ground to ask him the questions the footballing world wants to know, including, “Recently, Roy Keane criticized your mentality based on a quote he claimed you said. How do you respond to that?” He came criticizing me, killing me, say that I’m not good enough, that I’m not a good captain, that I’m not the good player for the club. It’s okay. I don’t mind. What I don’t like is when people lie about things. I even asked Ole his number to have a word with him. Did you speak to him?

Bruno. To understand somebody, I always think you have to start with where they started and the the early context that they grew up in. And we were just talking before we started recording about Porto. I’m on a journey to understand why you are the way that you are because you’re such an anomaly on the pitch and your your career. When I tracked the journey of where you’ve come from and how you continually were promoted and pushed forward at a very young age, it’s clear to me that your early context, your early upbringing and whatever it was that was present at that age has shaped you in some very very important way. What is the sort of earliest thing I need to understand about where you came from and that environment? For me, it’s all about family. is about taking care of other people and I think to succeed not just in in sports but in life you need to be you need to be very careful of of your surroundings. So I think the values of my family, the values of my of my parents were were what make me the person and the player I am today. The older I’ve gotten, I’m now 33, so I think I’m 2 years older than you, the more I’ve realized actually with time what I learned from my parents and like the values that my dad in particular gave me. He never for a lot of the things it’s not something he ever said to me. It’s like modeling what he did. So seeing how he behaved. Yeah. What’s that for you? It’s it’s kind of the same, you know, like um my father was never a person to to show his emotions too much or tell you what to do or how to do it. Uh you’ll just do it and you would understand by by by his behavior by the way he does things that uh that was his way of showing us how he has to be doing. was never a person of like hugging, kissing and stuff. He’s got now into that even when I come out of games and stuff you see like I I I always get his hug. I always get the his kiss and this is something that I as a kid I knew how much he loved me but uh in in this small aspects was always my mom giving this kind of love. He was more uh in the way of he was showing how things have to be done, how how much you have to sacrifice yourself to certain things. My dad was very strong with me in term of like games. Imagine I could come out of a game scoring two, three goals or whatsoever and my parents, my dad in this case will always pick up the bad moments I had in games to make me understand that wasn’t that wasn’t that was good but wasn’t great. It’s always margin to improvement, you know, it’s always small things. And I think I’ve learned such from such a young age to deal with criticism that I’m now in probably in one of the biggest clubs in terms of like getting criticism and attention. That doesn’t hurt me. Like I don’t like it. Obviously, no one likes to get criticized, but it doesn’t hurt me. It doesn’t change the way I behave. It doesn’t change the way I want to do things. But from the other side, it makes me understand there’s still things to improve. And I listen to that and I I I I look at my game and I see if he’s needed of changing of improvement in my game. And and my dad was always very strong in that with me. And I see nowadays the parents, you know, my dad never wanted me to be a footballer. He wanted me to become a better person, a better player on or a better student. Everything I wanted I wanted to do, he just wanted to me to do it at like 100%. You need you want to do this, you have to do the best you can. You can’t just be happy with you go to a test and let’s say in Portugal was from zero to 100%. And you have 98 and you’ll be the most happiest person in the world. No, you can be happy because that result is amazing. But you left 2% then that you still can improve. So you always showing me that even if was just a small thing or a small detail, you still have something more to do. You still still have something more that you can improve or become better. And that’s something that has stuck with me not just in football but in life. I don’t like to do things 50%, 60 70 or 80. Whenever I’m included in something, I want I want to go full. I want to learn as much as I can. I want to be the best version I can in that aspect, whatever he is. I mean, it’s it’s really interesting cuz I I I wonder to myself how you I think you started playing football at 5 years old. Yeah, five. And were you good from 5 years old? Were you different from your peers at a young age? In such a young age, I I never think about being a footballer. I just wanted to play football for life. I’m just happy playing football. I just want to have this ball in my feet every time, all time. And you joined uh FC Infesta. Yeah, that was my first club at 5 years old. I mean, I’ve got some photos of you as as a young man here. I’ve got so many photos here, but you must be roughly around that age then. And remarkably, I read that after one training session, they moved you into the older group and you played with people two years older than you when you were four, five years old. Yeah, I was five playing with a seven years old. Why did they move you into a different group? I went for the first session and it was a football session. Five aside uh but like an indoor thing. Um and uh after that first session, they told me that like no, you need to get on the grass. And then I think it comes just u you know I looked at the other players and at the other other people that were training with me and I didn’t want to be better than them. I just wanted to like getting getting at them was the same as getting as my brother that was five years older than me. For me it was no different. If I have to beat him up I will beat him up. You know like one v one I’m going to go past him. I have to tackle I’m going to tackle him. He’s going to tackle me stronger. It doesn’t matter. I tackle him again. And and I was I had no fear. And I think that was the thing that make me become better and better because I was never the best. Like technical ability, yes, I was good. Was the best? No. Speed. Was I quick? Yeah, I was quite the quick. Was the the quickest? No. I was the strongest. No. I was the tallest. No. But I had no fear of anything of that. I had to sprint with someone that was quicker than me. I’m going to speed with him and I’m going to I might not beat him, but I’m going to get close to that. I actually read that you were so aggressive that referees sometimes asked your coach at Infesta Sergio to sub you off otherwise they’d have to send you off. I mean that kind of correlates with what you were saying there about fear. Yeah. You were aggressive. I was I that’s what I mean like I had I had no fear, you know, like I I wouldn’t look at faces or sizes whatsoever and think like oh he’s bigger than me, you know, like he’s going to he’s going to be stronger than me or whatever. I would get into any any any ball in any moment in in in the game with with no fear at all. And this is probably the best times in my career between Infesta and Bu Vista because this one is Infesta. This one is at Vista when I just I stayed probably a year at Infesta and Bista got me straight away. There should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribed, you’re already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you’re not yet. And if you’re not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you’re someone that watches our show, but you haven’t yet hit that button. Thank you so much. And you moved quickly um up and up and up and up. And that was one of the remarkable things I noticed when I looked at you starting playing at 5 years old getting promoted to an older team and then quickly almost in all the clubs, you know, up I’m looking at when you were 17 years old and you left Portugal and moved to Italy to join Navara. Yeah. And after 3 months there, you were promoted to the first team. Um, and but then you very quickly joined Udinazi. Yes. And at Udazi, you met a guy called Franchesco. I can’t pronounce his surname, but Guidelini. Guidelini. Yeah. He was really, really formative in your career, wasn’t he? You were what, 18 years old? 18 years old. Yeah. Why was he such an important part of your career? What did he teach you or give you at Udzy? He was the manager that probably gave me the bases and the foundation to be fearless and express myself, you know, like to get my head out of so many things that were going on and as a young kid that has just made the step into the area. And he’s like, I need to now is the moment I need to show myself. But he was like, you don’t you you showed me that you have the qualities when you were in second division in Italy. That’s why we bought you. And to be honest, I was on the edge of coming to Watford on loan. Watford. Yeah. Because the it’s the same owners. Mhm. And uh we getting at the edge of the transfer window. They just bought me and obviously they had a big squad with a lot of players and they were like, “We’re going to send you to Watford. You’re going to you’re going to be there playing for them.” Blah blah. And I was like, “What have I done?” Like I wasn’t I wasn’t good enough. And then in the same moment they called me to go to the auto pack my stuff cuz it was like last days this pack my stuff. I was with with my girlfriend wife now and she was like uh don’t worry we’re going to we’re going to go anywhere else and you’re going to you’re going to succeed. And I said but why can I make it here? Like what what what was that I did wrong that like the manager is like not looking at me the same that is looking to other players and and in my head was like have I done something wrong? I’ve not like showed my full potential. Have I not shown that I’m good enough to be in this team? And I don’t know why in the middle of all this thought the sporting director called me again and says Bruno you can’t go anymore. The manager wants you to stay. He says he loved you. He loves your attitude. He want you to learn from him. He wants you to understand how he wants to play and everything. He says you might not play much this season but he’s pretty sure that you you are the type of player that will succeed at this club. And then we had many conversations. And I think when you want a manager for young players that very quick will play and will think like, “Oh, I’m I’m the guy now.” He’s going to make you understand, stay calm. I got you, but you’re still not there. And he was so good for me. It was like a father figure, you know, like, but not just for me. If you speak with every player that was there at that time, they knew they were important for him because he always showed that. And that’s why we made me so much more complete in terms of understanding the moments and the process that managers have to go through their heads and what they think about players that is better or whatsoever that you don’t understand. Whenever a manager puts you on the bench, you just think doesn’t like me. He’s he’s doing this because he makes he wants to make another one play whatso but the way he did it with me and all the players that were around me at that time, we were so happy that their environment was very very good. As a young man, when you’re this age, you’re 18 years old, what are your dreams? And if I’d asked you at the time, what does your future look like? What would you have said to me? As soon I I became a professional player, I I was like, I want to be on on on the top clubs. I want to play for for the big clubs. I want to be in the Champions League. I want to to play for trophies. I want to become the players I’m looking at. I want I want to become like them. Did you think you could? Yeah, always. I’ve never I never doubt. And at 22, you get a call um and you return to Portugal and signed a 5-year deal with Sporting in a deal worth reportedly 8.5 million. That next season, you scored 20 goals and added 13 assists, which was unheard of unheard of for a player in your position. And what I read as well is that Tottenham were interested in you at that time. Um, and it was it was at one point highly likely that you were going to end up moving to Tottenham. I’m very glad you didn’t as a Man United fan, but tell me about that. So Tottenham did call you. Yeah, the I spoke with Tottenham and uh we were very close to get an agreement done. Um then in the last two days or one day of market the sporting just said we we’re not going to sell him. We going to keep him because we need him. And u you wanted to go to Tottenham. Yes. Because I wanted to play in the Premier League. Why? Because for me he’s the best league in the world. He’s the most competitive one. is the one that I think when you grow up you dream to play for you know like full stadiums top clubs top players obviously I was I was lucky enough that my dream club to play in England was Man United then obviously Tottenham at the time was the option I had and I was very very happy to join them because they showed me the process that they were going through the manager that was there at the time they also really wanted me all the new things the new facilities and everything so I was very happy with the with everything that I could see uh going forward but uh it didn’t happen and for bigger reasons I I guess and then in January I got I got the call that uh I was I was hoping for for uh for two three years already. Tell me about that call cuz I know Manchester United has has been you know in your eye for a long time. I mean you I know you grew up watching people like Cristiano Ronaldo play for this club and I think when he I think when he first played for Portugal you were you were a young guy. You were like 8 or 10 years old or something and he had been a great star of Manchester United but but I think generally people of our age group we grew up in the heyday of Manchester United the Alex Ferguson era as well. So why Manchester United and can you zoom me in if I’m a fly on the wall when you get that phone call from your agent I guess that Manchester United are in I can see the smile on your face. I was um let’s say I was in my wardrobe. I was getting getting ready to go to bed. We just had to my wife was just putting uh kids to my daughter at that time. I only had my daughter uh to bed and I get the call from my agent. Uh I knew things were going on and everything, but after what happened with Tottenham, I didn’t want to put my focus on transfer windows. And I I never did it in every step of my career that I’ve changed club. I always said to my agent, whenever he’s like 95% that the club really wants me and he’s ready to make an offer, tell me. And then I decide if it’s like the right moment and I want to go. Apart of that, I I’m like, just keep him apart. Keep me apart. I don’t want to know it. I don’t want like to lose the focus of what I’m doing to something that I can’t control. And after the Tottenham thing, I was like even more because obviously I was basically done. And then all of a sudden last day Sporting just says like guys, oh, they text tom and say like we’re not going to make it. So he called me and he said, “Brun, so you told me to not speak to you until we had something like concrete.” Concrete, but just so you know, they also have agreement already everything. So it’s just on your side now to say yes or no. And I was like, like yes or no to what? And he said, “Come on, you’ve seen the news.” I said, my agent calls me, Miguel, the news are every day different. Every day they’re going to put a new club that is interested in me, so I’m not I’m not going to be focused on that. He said, “Okay, many night is coming for you. I know I know this is like what you want. So, just so you know, this is this is the one that you’ve been waiting for. So, it’s on you now to make a decision.” And then, uh, for like 10 20 seconds, I didn’t I didn’t said anything. I was I was crying, but I didn’t want to talk because, you know, like your voice starts going a little bit chalky. And then all of a sudden, my my wife gets into the wardrobe and he says, “I’m still on the call.” And she goes like, “Why are you crying?” and like him on the phone say are you crying? I was like just I turned that off and I was like Miguel just called me and then in the moment I’m trying to explain to my wife what’s going on. He’s calling me like repetitively like I need an answer and I was like and my wife was like why are you crying so like this is like what you have dreamed for? like this is this is the moment you you’re waiting for and I was like oh I don’t know it’s it’s just too much like I I’ I’ve never expected after everything that happened with Tottenham I would have got the chance to come to the Premier League again and having the chance to come to the Premier League with Man United is it’s it’s like 100% of the dream complete so obviously then like uh I just I just call him back and I said like I don’t even want to know anything else just tell them I’m going obviously I was very good at sporting and I was very happy there because I I really enjoyed my time at sporting because was when I became probably the best version of of myself as a player where I improved so much in that two years and a half but then was like the dream of playing for the Premier League and I think from every sporting fun they really understood that was was ready for me to to go and do the next step. And when you joined, man, I mean, here’s the famous photo of you signing with Manchester United. Yeah, it’s funny this the smile that you still have on your face when you look at this photo. Same. Yeah, it’s uh because I think when when you look back, as I said, like this is the the day your dream comes true. So it’s uh it’s probably professional wise I think I put this one and sporting together because of the importance that sporting had in my career but obviously this this was the cherry on on top of the cake because this is where I wanted to be. and you joined the club at a time when the club was in a bit of turmoil, struggling. You know, Sir Alex Ferguson has left. Um we’ve cycled through a bunch of managers and we’ve got um Olegana Solar is the manager at that point. I think the club was seventh in the Premier League when you joined. Um and it was going through a time of turbulence. You knew that Manchester United wasn’t the most stable club in the world, but you chose to come here anyway. And based on your rec record at sporting, you would have had a lot of other opportunities to join a club that was more stable. That was, you know, and it’s interesting because clubs can have a big impact on a player’s future. Players can have a big impact on a club, but it also goes the the other way. And as someone that runs businesses, you know, the environment you join has a huge impact on everyone’s behavior. No, no, irrespective of how hard you try. You chose to join a club that was at the time unstable. Look, the the game I looked before I came here was I think Burnley, United Burnley and United loses at home 2-1. I don’t remember exactly, but I know I know they’ve lost that game. And it was just like days before I came and I was like I I still think there is there’s a lot of potential in that team. And a part of having potential in that team, I’m joining one of the biggest clubs in the world. And I know that clubs go through periods where things don’t go the way they want, but sometimes it’s not just because they’re not great. It’s just because other teams are being better than them. And that’s that’s fine because in football you’re not going to win all the time. But the thing you can do is like you can bring your own values, your own experience, your own qualities and trying to help everyone else around you to become better, to become the team you want to see. And I think at that time that period of then we had the co time and all the stuff but that period from there to the end of the season the team was unbelievable and the season after we got second place and because we struggled in certain moments of keeping keeping up to to the standard of city that had a very good end of season but for me was like I wasn’t like how I’ll fix that. I was like I’m going to be the the magic magic powder that’s going to solve all the problems. But I really knew that this club had something special and for me to join it was was like I can be part of something that is going to become great again and I still believe that and obviously it can take time. It’s taking more time than I thought. Yes, of course. But at that time I had too many dreams in my head and uh they still are here and still a lot of things that I want to achieve. But this smile and this guy that came here in 2020 is is is still is still is still the same guy that wants to to win and succeed at this club. I’m wondering, you know, because there’s been so much said about the environment at Manchester United over the years. I I know a little bit about the environment when Sir Alex Ferguson was here because I interviewed a lot of his players and having been to Carrington before and uh actually going to the grounds and actually sitting in the hospitality lounge and waitresses coming over to me and talking about when Sir Alex Ferguson was here and how he knew everyone’s name and then how it changed. I it was really interesting to me to get a lot of this feedback because it highlighted how small things in culture can have a big impact right down to the the way players play. And there’s always a story that Gary Neville told me about with Wendy and her charity balls. He told me a story of the players walking past Wendy who got the charity ball signed for a local charity and one day a couple of them didn’t sign it. And so Alex Ferguson came downstairs and he quote [ __ ] killed us. And it’s it’s a strange thing to do like to care that much about a small detail in culture, but over time, Gary told me he he understands why Sir Alex Ferguson cared so much. So my question to you is really about the cultural evolution at this club and what the fans are desperate to know about like how it’s changed and how it feels different from the time you arrived in 2018 up until today. I’ve brought in my behavior, my the way I’ve been raised and all these things. And I think every different player has brought different things to the to the club. But I think one of the things that has to be always there is the respect for people. And I think that says for me is a non-negotiable thing. Like if any player comes to this club and he doesn’t respect the physios, the pe the stewards, the people that are in all the desks we have here, the people that work for us in the restaurant, the chefs and all these people that are around us taking care of us. Even if you don’t see it or if you don’t think it or whatever is for me it’s a non-negotiable thing that the respect has to be always there and more than respect the care you need to care about them because if you have a good foundation a good base of respect and and care in in your club it’s going to get better the environment gets better everything is more positive because I think and and this is probably the way I’ve been raised I treat everyone in the same way I don’t treat the players in a way that I don’t treat the clean lady or the people that are in the front desk or the people that the stewards and at the entrance you know if I say good morning to these ones I say good morning to these ones I don’t change that if I give handshake to this ones I give handshake to this one if I greet them as I’m greeting my teammates they will feel part of it they will feel involved they will feel as important as them even knowing that the role of them is completely different of the other ones because the the role of a CEO is one thing but if the cleaner doesn’t clean everything nice and leaves is everything prepared and well well done and everything. You will notice that something is wrong. You will notice that this is not the place where you want to work for. You do you notice that you don’t want to be the CEO of a company that has trash everywhere. Yeah. And so we why wouldn’t you greet the person that takes care of you, takes care of your place to look so good and to make an impact when people come in from the outside? It reminds me of something actually Johnny IV said. So Johnny IV is the famous Apple designer that designed all the Apple products that we know and love. And he said um it’s very hard to feel care. He goes, “But everyone can feel when someone didn’t care. You go to a restaurant and they didn’t care.” Small things. He goes, “But it’s like,” he said, um care is just this thing in the background, this ambient feeling you have when you arrive somewhere, but you can’t you can’t like point out exactly what it is, but you can feel it. That’s the thing. I think it’s more that you feel it, but you don’t see it. And I think touching this point I was I was talking about cleaners. My mom was a she was cleaning houses for work. So I never wanted the people that were cleaning the house to treat my mom badly or let’s say downgrade the work she’s doing for them because for example now I have a person that works in my house. I don’t allow my kids to talk badly to her. I don’t allow my kids to say grab that and put it in place. And I said it to her in the first day she came to work and I said, “If something is not in the in the right place, obviously I want you to clean. I want you to put things in place. I want all of this. But I don’t want my kids to tell you, oh that uh arrange that or put this in place.” No. If they want something, they can ask you, but first of all, they need to be respectful. If they can’t make it, they have to ask you, but in the respect way. But if it’s something that they can make, you have to make them make it. Not like, oh, you do it. No, just explain them how to do it. Show them the way so they learn with it. And this probably the way I behave with the people that work with me. It comes a lot because of my background of not like it to see my mom because I was not in the houses obviously. I don’t know if they treated well or not. My mom never said to me that any of the people that she worked for were bad bad to her or treat her in a in a bad way. So, I really think that that made me understand that because I I don’t want that for my mom, I won’t make that to other people. I’ve been a Man United fan since I was a kid. So, like my siblings were born in Manchester. I was saying to you before, I was born in um in Botswana in Africa, but because I’ve got two older brothers who are Man United fans, I very quickly became a Manchester United fan. I remember like 3 4 years old. And then as soon as I could, when I was 18, I moved up from the Southwest to Manchester at 18 years old and I lived here and went to my first Manchester United games. I’ve seen the club go on this incredible journey um from you know Sorax Ferguson’s era to this sort of period of transition to where we are now and it’s my observation my honest observation that after in the post Fergie era the club made some bad decisions as it relates to recruitment and culture. Um people often talk about um Edwards I’m not going to I’m not going to try and stitch you up in any way or get you to talk about anything particular. I’m just expressing my opinion. They talk about Ed Woodward’s uh strategy towards signing players and it being a bit flippant and then you look at the sort of group of lads that we had and just as a United fan watching on the pitch, I felt the culture was a bit confused because it didn’t seem like it seems now where it seems like there’s this really strong central agreement around the values. It felt a bit I don’t know a bit like we had signed players because they were famous or big but not because they fit. And I feel when I look at the club now, I go, “Oh, these guys kind of fit.” And whoever’s doing recruiting is thinking about character. It feels to me like there’s been this process over the last couple of years of getting rid of the wrong character profiles. And I think Amarim really spoke to this. He really talked about getting rid of the players that didn’t have the right character profile. Just to add one more line to this, I’ve spoken to a lot of players at the club in past and present and they expressed the same to me as well that there was an issue with sort of character profile that has now been solved for. And I think the main mistake that the club has done through the years that we’ve changed manager to manager, they were very different. And that’s already a bad sign not of recruitment because then you bring in players that fit that manager. But the next one you brought plays a completely different way and the three or four or five that you bought don’t fit this one anymore. And then you have to buy another four or five. Mhm. And then the constantly change of strategy in in in the club or in the way we wanted to play or whatsoever was not was not the best because then obviously it becomes that the players don’t suit anymore. The system is not even more the character then it comes up but it’s more the system. Then obviously we can talk about character that players that were certain players that were not a perfect fit for the club but you never know it until you bring it to the club. I think sometimes you can see it and I think is there players that I think the club by the behavior they have on the pitch or the behavior they have on on social media whatsoever you can see if they will be a fit for the club or not and I think the main thing for the club as you said there you need to bring good characters because that will be more important to build something that good qualities because good qualities they all they will have you don’t bring a player to Man United that doesn’t have qualities but if you can add the qualities to the character that’s a win-win Because the qualities will be moment that the quality won’t be as good as you want because players go through periods that sometimes they play very good, sometimes they play very bad but the character remains the same and that’s the character you want where they are on a low to be the right character to push himself to be on a high or at the same time when they are on the low to be the right character to push the other ones to be at at the top level. And I think that’s the main thing that the club has to do in terms of recruitment and everything is bringing people first of all that want to be a Man United to play for Man United, not to be a Man United just because he’s a big club. They want to be here because this is the club. They think and they really understand that they want to succeed with this club. They want to bring this club back to the days we were used to see Man United. I know it’s been 12 13 years. I know. We want that to get as short as possible to become that club that won 20 Premier League titles and is joined the most in the Premier League. So character in a football club is more important than the quality because the quality you always going to get it and you can improve it. This is what I heard from Patrice Ever. I remember him telling me that he met Sir Alex Ferguson in in an airport I think in France and Sir Alex Ferguson sat him down and said are you willing to die for Manchester United and he said yes. And so he shook his hand. and he said, “Welcome to Manchester United.” And that’s a different way of recruiting. He’s not testing if he can kick a ball well. He’s testing if he’s got the heart and that mentality that I think Fergie and previous sort of cohorts of Manchester United really really cared about. I think Sir Alex obviously he’s done mistakes in recruitment too because obviously not every player was great, but he always brings players in any time and any moment they would fit the club. And that’s the main thing I think in terms of recruitment but this is like something that is not for me to get involved but I will say it I understand the club has different manager comes in comes in and different ways of playing it whatsoever but the recruitment has to be from Man United because the player will get normally a 5 years contract and the manager will get two and you know that if he’s not something is not working the club always gets rid of the manager first then he gets rid of the player because it’s much more difficult. So I think you always have to bring players that fit the club and then you bring managers that fit the club and the players you’ve got and I think that says to be the the the thing that for example let’s talk about club and pet why they were so successful because they chose the players in togetherness with the club that will fit the club the system and the way they wanted to play and through the years have they done mistakes of course have they bought players that didn’t work yes but I think we’re more the ones that worked and the ones that didn’t. And the ones that didn’t work, I haven’t seen many of them coming out and talking bad about the club or about the manager whatsoever. Yeah, it’s difficult to be there and a club buy you for 50, 60, 70 million and then you don’t play. When you thought, oh, oh, I’m going to play cuz they paying this amount of money for me. I’m going to play. Then you get there, you don’t play. Of course, it’s difficult. But what I’ve seen is that they built in a way that the squad was strong enough to take care of those players that were not playing and were struggling. One of the things I’ve noticed as a change, especially this season, is all this social media distraction, people posting on their Instagram stories when they don’t play, their brother’s sister posting my brother should be playing, whatever. All of this sort of like social media stuff that some players were doing over the last couple of years seems to have vanished. And this is just an interesting, you know, we talk about small things being interesting signals. It’s one of the things I’ve noticed this year. there isn’t social media nonsense going on. How like I guess my question is is that something the club has done? Has there been have they sat you down and said stop the social media stuff or is it just a consequence of getting the right people together? I think it’s a little bit both but at the same time I think the club has to be the one being strong with the players when they see something that is not right or they don’t like it or it’s not good on the players on on the team on the attention this club gets. I think the the club needs to talk with them and with the agents, with the families, whatsoever that speaks out and says something because I think it’s also on the players to make the families and um everyone that is behind them understand that what they put out or what they say can have consequences on our careers. Do you do you talk to the players about this? I’ve if if I see something that I don’t like or if I see them posting or replying to some people on social whatsoever because for example from such a young age I’ve said to my parents I’ve said to my brother I’ve said to my sister I don’t want you talking without my like without me knowing it not because they don’t know how to talk or whatever but they not aware what can be bad or wrong they they might think they will going to say something that is going to be good for me but maybe has repercussions on other people and I don’t want them to do that So my parents never spoke, my brother never spoke, my sister never spoke when I wasn’t playing. Let people make noise, let people talk. Doesn’t matter what they say. I know for my mom, for example, she suffers a lot with this. And I say, “Take it in. Don’t care. Pray pray at your saints like you do to me all the time and and make sure they do the right thing for me cuz that’s that’s what matters.” And she she kind kind of like gets okay with that. Obviously I know that probably when my brother says something or my sister they want to reply to something they want to say it’s not true why why you talking about this my brother whatever I don’t want them to get involved in that because not going to be good for them not going to be good for me and it’s not going to be good for my environment and I don’t want that but I think that is because I was strong with my family in the in the first moment and I think that’s where we have to be I don’t go home to my family and saying like you know this manager this this manager that I might say what I like or I don’t like whatever But I don’t go in a way of like if I had someone that could put something out because I’ve been doing this, I I don’t care like to people to put out, oh, Bruno is training so well. Bruno is doing this, Bruno is doing that. I know I’m doing it. That’s enough for me. And it’s true because, you know, you’ve been through this this process of transition with Ollie, then Carrick, then Raph, then Eric, then Reuben, then Fletcher, then Carrick again. And actually, one of the remarkable things is I’ve never noticed your attitude towards the managers be any different. I can’t tell. I can’t tell. As far as I’m aware, you support them all. And that’s how it should be. I think if you’ve got a problem, I think as you know, player, you should go tell them. But we shouldn’t know, you know, and well, we don’t know with you. I don’t know what you think of them. I agree with that. First of all, I like every manager that comes in my way because I learn with them. And every manager that comes in has their own idea, has their own thinking, has their own way of playing, and they want me to do one thing, the other one, another thing, the other one, another thing. And for me, that’s good because they believe that I’m capable of doing different things that I was doing before. So, what I won’t give to the managers is the choice or the option in their head to think I’m not going to play Bruno. What do you do when you’re not happy about something though as the captain? Do you go have a chat with them? No, I do whatever they want me to do. If they think is the best thing for the team, I’m going to do it. Either I agree or not, believe it more or not. I make myself available for what they want to do 100%. If then it works or not, that’s on them to to decide to decide that if it needs to be changed or not. I’m not going to go to the manager and ask them to change formation, the way they play. If they ask me, I give my opinion. If they don’t ask me, I don’t say anything. What have you learned about what a good manager does and how to be a good manager from the six managers you’ve had? For me, look, through my career, I’ve always heard that, you know, like certain players should be treated in a different way than other players. I don’t believe in that. It’s like the same as having a business. you buy certain people to do certain things because you believe they the right person to do that. So I don’t think that you then should change the way you behave with them. You should probably approach them in different ways. I believe in that because I’m not the same as you. Yeah. So do you treat players differently on the pitch cuz you’re you know you shout at lots of your teammates. Are there some that you won’t shout at as much? I treat I treat all of them the same and I think they kind of getting to know exactly why I do it everything that we train in imagine let’s see during the week we train this and we have seen images of this we know what we have to do the managers has prepared for us for that I demand that at least I don’t I don’t care who you are we’ve been a full week preparing the training the game for this this we need to know how to do it then if you can make a pass or you can make a goal or you can make a tackle Well, that’s different. That’s the qualities I need from each one individually. But I’ve learned to talk with them in different ways, but with the same end result. Not like I won’t like go to one and say like being scared of saying things to him and the other one like because he’s younger whatsoever, I’m going to like shout at him. So, no. If I have to shout at this one, I’ll shout this one. If I have to shout at this one, I’ll shout at this one. If I have to praise this one, I’ll praise this one in the same way I praise this one. And I think that you can see in my interviews. I’m not afraid of saying what I feel. At the same time, I’m not afraid of praising players for what they have done or what they’re doing. Even if they probably in the moment, they did they haven’t done as much as they needed to get the praise. But for me, I think he needs that praise to get him to the next level. So, I’m going to give him something, but I make him aware. I’ve gave you something, but I’m expecting something more from you. It’s like my dad giving me like you need to be better. You need to do more because he knows I’m capable of more. And this is why I demand from the players. I demand I’m I’m I’m very strong on them because I I really believe in them. I have said this so many times to so many different players. It’s like trust me, the day I stop talking to you, the day I start shouting I stop shouting at you is because I don’t believe in you anymore and I don’t believe you can improve anymore. Your time at Manchester United has been a bit of a roller coaster like this kind of like up and down and up and down. You went second and then you dropped down the league your second and uh I mean the last two years have been a prime example of that finishing near the near the bottom end of the table and then this year back up to third. I’m wondering as a fan when things get bad and you hear all these sort of rumors breaking online that the manager is going to be sacked. Does that impact the dressing room? Like do you guys in the dressing room because you’ve been through it so many times where a manager has been removed. Do how what’s that like when you know things are going bad? No, first of all, you feel it for the manager is is the first thing because I think obviously certain players will feel it more than others because it’s that players that play more than others and they obviously the ones that probably don’t play, they don’t like to see managers going. But at the same time, if a new manager comes in is a new opportunity for them to probably get into the team more times they were getting before. And I think going through the process of changing manner is probably the worst thing in in in sports because it’s starting from zero again. And either either people believe it or not when you’re through a process you want to get to the end of the process and understanding what’s what that has gave to you as a player and what you can do more with that staff with that team uh and with that manager to go even further more. Why didn’t you lose hope? Because you went through that process of starting from zero making progress manager goes back to zero. Making progress manager goes back to zero. You know why? Because every time I’ve spoke this with yogo before, every time you come for preseason is like a new start and you always get that belief of like this is going to be the this is going to be the time. This is going to be the time is moments through the season that you you get this belief that things are not going well. But the main thing I have is belief in myself. So I always think if I do things right and I take people to do things right and I help them to do things right as a team we still have a chance of pushing ourself into positions we want to be and this let’s say this season has been that case because we strug we struggle obviously we didn’t change manager because of results because we were two points behind second place and like five points behind first place we were same points till I think from third to seventh place was everyone with the same points something like that. So we were we wore there was something different with this with the club that they felt that the the trust between them was was broke or whatsoever and they kind of decided to start a new process and that was bad because for us when Reuben came what was passed from the club is like this is going to be a process but we’re going to go through this going to be good and bad times but we’re going to go through this. Obviously then the club decided that it was time to part ways and you started from zero for from with Michael but then you’ve got results and you went to the end of the season and you finished third and you finish what doing probably in the time Michael was here till the end of the season till till now is we probably the team that has made more points. What did Michael change? I think in in the first moment what what what Michael tried to do is like to give stability to the team because as every manager understands when you come in after a break, you understand that you need to give stability and peace of mind to the players to get back to the level he thought we could have. and he brought the foundation and the base that has been in this club u from the time he played till the time he managed and then he left. So he knows he knows the club, he knows how the club wants to play and he knows what the fans want to see. How is he different? Like what’s what tactically or from a character perspective, what does Michael bring as a manager? I know as you know just an hour ago or so it was announced that he’s going to be the Manchester United manager going forward. um which is great news. Um but what what is if you had to describe him to me as a leader and a manager, what how is he different? I think he’s a very he gives you a a lot of calmness, you know, in terms of uh why he wants from the team, the way he demands, the way he coaches. Um, he gives you he gives you a good way of going to the game with with a good peace of mind but with a lot of responsibility because I think from the time he was here with Sar Alex he gave a lot of responsibility to the players to make decisions and to make choices on the pitch that have to be on you. He gives you the base. He gives you the foundation. He gives you certain rules that is like the non-negotiable ones. But then he also knows and he wants us to take some responsibility to the game that things might change because you prepare a game full week obviously. But then the team could come and uh do a different thing like you prepare to play against a 4-33 because they always played 433 and then they come and they play 352 and then you go like oh and now the manager come be on the sideline telling you where to press, where to go. So as a as a players have the foundation, have the base, have the rules, non-negotiables and from there on we need to find a way of like okay let’s imagine we can’t press because they’ve changed everything and the press we prepared was not was not the one we needed. Let’s get compact. Let’s get together. They don’t get into our block. When we have the ball we play with the ball. we get into the off time and then the manager will give us the message that he wants to give or whatever he has seen that we need to do differently in a way of getting a better result from the from the pressure and I think that’s what he gave to us the calmness and the way he prepares games was very good but when things were not going in the way we wanted he gave responsibility to the players to like make it work then we solve it ah so like a bit of freedom to it’s not exactly freedom because freedom is a different thing It gives you freedom with the ball to make decisions because he says that’s your responsibility on the ball. I can’t tell you where to pass the ball. I can’t tell you where to shoot. I can help you where the space is going to be. And I think that the most important thing for a player is knowing where space is going to be. You need to know where spaces are to then play with it. You know that they have big gaps there that we can hurt them from there. And this is the message that Michael has passed to the team. It’s like if we attack from here, they have less people on this side. We can bring more people in the box from this side. We want a very good counter press because they have two strikers. So we need to have three people in the back. Two of them mark, one of them stays behind. So this is the small things and the foundation that he give to us. But then he he says many times I can’t tell you where to pass. I can’t tell you where to shoot. I give you the solutions but might not be there. So you have to find a way of making the good pass, the good shot, the good decision because I’m not going to be in your head in that moment. in your head it’s going to be the ideas I gave you and some of them will be good some of them won’t won’t work out so you have to make a way of like understand the good ones I gave you and the other ones that are not working well you need to find a way of make it work so it’s more just he gives you the principles uh instead of specific instructions on how to play and what to do kind of gives you but then he lets you balance through the game okay he lets let’s say he lets the players read the Because in 90 minutes many things happen and not going to always happen what you see in the video. Hopefully yes but not always. For example, let’s say we had the chance against um Nottingham Forest that I pass the ball through Brian and he scores. We have seen the same chance from Villa against Forest. The exact same chance, exact same movements, exact same passes. And we’ve seen that. We visualize that and that’s why that works because we had the ideas. We knew we could make that happen and we made it. Does he get angry cuz he seems like such a calm guy when you see him in press conferences. He’s very calm and very you know. Yeah, he did he did he did hungry one once or twice but he’s very calm in the way he speaks. But I think I think everyone gets hungry anyway. But uh he’s a very calm presence and he’s is is someone that speaks very well, knows the timing, the words, uh he knows what to say. Um and whenever he got when he let’s get let’s say more aggressive within us was was the time that we needed to to get that from him. And the way that you play is interesting because it when I was looking at um a bunch of your quotes over time, but also how I think about business, you are a player that takes more risks than most people. And we talk a lot about failure in business and how you have to increase your rate of failure to to to get better outcomes. But you’re a player that is not shy of taking a risk and you play in a way where you you sometimes lose the ball, but you also, as we’ve seen this year in many other years, you often are generating more opportunities than any other player on the pitch. How do you think about this? Because the way you play means that sometimes you’re going to make a lot of mistakes. You’re going to lose the ball more so than other players. I’d argue even more so than some of the previous midfielders we’ve had like Carrick who would often choose a more safe option than trying to play it through a thin gap. What’s your attitude towards risk? I think it’s always riskreward. You know, you you need to understand how much reward you’re going to get from that. Um and if taking that risk is good for the team or not. Let’s say the position I play. You need that is has to be one of your main skills to take risks to do things that the game demands from you and to make sure that your team teammates in the front get the ball in the positions that is going to be the rate of success for them to score a goal is going to be higher. I might miss two or three times, but if I get one right, that can become a goal for us. And I think there’s nothing better than a riskreward that is a goal. So I think when you play as a number 10 position, obviously you don’t want to lose the ball. You have to make that as less as possible. But in certain positions, you lose the ball more often than others. Wingers will lose more the ball on one v1s than midfielders do. Fullbacks will do normally more crosses than center backs will do. Number sixes will make more tackles than a striker will do. So is a balance in the team that you need to have. Let’s imagine I played with Kobe and Cassad. They not a risk player. So if I take four times, let’s say uh risky pass and they take one each, that’s six times a game. So I need to be the one that takes four. They need to be the ones that take one one each because the responsibility they have in the team is the one that they make the team play from the buildup, push the team forward to then get the ball into the players that have to take the risks because if you don’t have the players that take the risks, you’re going to end up bubbling. And we talk like for example let’s say Man City there is a team that’s that let’s say Guardiola Tikitaka all these things the Bruin was the player that take the risks Cherokee is now the player that take the risks Philen Douku Mahrez will be the ones that taking the risks on a 1 v one. Has a manager ever told you to take less risks? Eric told me to take less shots from the outside of the box. He showed me a a board with my success rating of shots on target, shots off target, and goals. Showed me the positions where I was more effective. And he told me, I think you need to get more into these positions to then make your shot. Into what positions? Let’s say close to the box like in in the position we will see the box and you would say like more towards the left hand side, you score more goals. more towards the right hand side, you’re you aim more the goal towards the middle of the of of the of the edge of the box, you miss more shots. So, it was like get more into the left side or get more into the right side or close range, long range. So, but then obviously is is is we come back to the risk and reward cuz sometimes obviously you’re going to score a great goal from 25 yards out. But how many times you going to do it out of five? if you maybe score one and he’s a lot already. So I need to make that risk become less and less and less getting more risk probably from 18 yards because there the possibility of me scoring a goal it might be three in five because I’m much more closer. I can put more power on the ball. I can be much more effective. I’ve spent the last decade building and investing in companies and so often the conversation around marketing budgets follows the exact same pattern. The budget gets approved, but then the results don’t come back. And most of the time, the creative pitch and the offer is fine. The problem lies with the audience. Ads reach people who will never buy or refer, nor do they have the power to sign off anything at all. And this is why so much budget gets wasted. LinkedIn ads, who are a sponsor of this podcast, lets you reach them specifically by job title, seniority, company size, industry, the skills that they have, and much more. You’re no longer hoping your ad reaches the right person. Instead, you’re defining exactly who sees it. And LinkedIn Ads drives the highest B2B return on ad spend across all major ad networks. Give them a try at linkedin.com/diary. And if you spend $250 on your first campaign, you’ll get a $250 credit for your next one just by going to linkedin.com/diary. Keep this to yourself. Terms and conditions apply. Of all the things I thought would ever turn up on my desk, a red light toothbrush was not one of them. Here we are. This is made by our sponsor Bond Charge, and you’ll probably know of their red light face mask and their infrared sauna blanket because I use them religiously, and I’ve spoken about them on this podcast before, but their toothbrush is new to me. I was sent one of these a few weeks ago, and ever since then, I’ve been using it religiously because I love their products. And this is the first toothbrush that combines both red light and near infrared light with sonic cleaning at the same time. The same red light technology that’s used for skin and inflammation is now built into a device you already know so well. And I’m using at least two times a day at the moment to clean my teeth. It’s great for your gums, for stimulating gum circulation, and for soreness. And the best part is it’s not an extra thing to add to your routine. It just replaces your current toothbrush. If you give it a try, you’ll get 20% off at bondcharge.com/doac. And also, you’ll get free shipping and a one-year warranty. That’s bondcharge.com/dac.

You’ve had lots of managers, so they’ve all asked you of different to be, you know, playing different positions. But on on this pitch here, where is it that you you like to play the most? I think the positions where I can be more effective is this square. Let’s say here I would say let’s let’s put it like this. Okay. Yeah. No, just just need a square. Oh, you just need a square. This is let’s say imagine we attacking this side. This this is the spaces where I think I can be more effective in this square here. And different managers asked you to play in different positions within here because for example uh let’s say let’s put here with Ruben he used to play three at the back one wing back two midfielders uh another wing back and striker two times with Reuben I played a lot of times here in this position when he first came and he wanted me and and in this position ition. These two more more than often you wanted me to be one of these two to help here to help these two midfielders to build up and to get this guy higher in a position when he can be in the last line and to get the ball into these two. So what position would you call that? Like left if this was the left 10, let’s say, but he wanted me to play more like as a left midfielder. Okay. To help them to like first of all to have more stability in the middle. second to get the ball going forward to take the risk of passing the ball forward. Then I played a lot of times here. What we’re going to do is we’re going to make you unfortunately we’re going to make you blue just so we can see which one you are. Okay. Okay. So in this one when I played here many times you wanted me here because they were pressing let’s say three against three and he wanted me to come and do the overload. So we had one more player to build up. So they will open up this ones a little bit more get this one more expensive. Normally it was Luke Shaw and as a fullback he was used to play in this space and so then we could drive the ball and they couldn’t press with the three they had. They wouldn’t be able to press because we always had this one also to bounce the ball. Then whenever we go up the pitch with the ball he wanted me here. Reuben did. Yeah. He wanted me to play more a little bit more higher to be one of the 310s and make this line of 310. Then for example with the Ole I was playing we would play like four two three one and I will be the number 10 and you wanted me to do this. Uh okay go across and sometimes you wanted me to do this and get the ball here or here to make the long passes and to make the switches to the to the wingers. I think this bit here in the middle is where I’m more I can I I think we all can see the best version of Bruno. If you ask me where I prefer to play, anywhere on the pitch. I think for the way we play, this is the position I I can be more effective. But I think I really enjoy to play here because I really enjoy to get the team to play. And if you I played many times with the tenag like this. Mhm. I was the number six playing with 28s and I really enjoy it to play here and it make make myself being different a different player more aggressive off the ball. Someone that has to cover spaces for this ones regardless of where you are on the pitch which can change. What is non-negotiable in terms of how you play? Commitment. That’s that’s non-negotiable. like the commitment I have for what we have to do. It doesn’t change by me liking the position or not, me preferring one position or the other. Um that that won’t change. Um I think running, fighting, and team spirit can never miss. It doesn’t appear to me that you ever get tired. And also one remarkable thing about you is you don’t seem to ever get injured. I get tired and I got injured unfortunately. Oh, but how How does that happen? Cuz I watch you run it be the 89th minute and you’re running up and down still. Is that genetic or is that something you do in training? What is that? I think obviously I’ve I have to say that I have good genetics, but um is I I was talking with Yog about this the other day also in and the nutritionist about like genetics how how you how you treat yourself and everything. Uh but then then at the same time I said to them, you know what’s different on me than the other ones because I always train 100%. I make the training as a game. I don’t care. I go full and if I I I don’t feel good, I I I need to make some extras. If I feel that the training wasn’t like enough, let’s do something else. Let’s do some shots. Let’s do some crosses to someone. Let’s do something that can make me go out of training and feeling like I’m tired. Why is that important? Because I think in the game you need to get tired and then you know like for example when you when I’m training shooting practice or last third passes I rather train that when I’m tired because going to be the last 20 minutes of the game your brain is not going to work in the same way it was working in the beginning because you get tired and you get to think slower a little bit. So you need to be able to train your body and your brain when they are tired. And I think if you do that in training, when you get to the game and you start getting tired, your brain is used to that also. Your body is used to be tired and he knows how to react into into that moment. These core principles that have been central to how you play have led you to being given this the captain’s armband which was quite there’s lots of talk of it at the time because Maguire was the captain before you and it’s quite typ atypical for the captain to be displaced while they’re still at the club and for someone else to be brought in. And as fans from the outside we wonder how Maguire takes that how Harry reacts to that but also what that means to you to become captain of uh your dream club. No, obviously for me was was a strange time because I was not expecting, you know, uh Tenner called me to his uh office to speak with me and to ask me if I wanted to be the captain of the club because he had decided to change the captain and he wanted me to be to be the one to lead the team from now on. Uh obviously first thought was like very grateful. um like in something that I’ve never dreamed about, you know, like you you can have many dreams, but you don’t dream about being the captain, you know, like of your club. And I think the second thought was like this is going to be tough on Harry. And the first person that I spoke with after I got out of that was Hari because he knew already. I think the manager spoke to him and before I said yes, I went to speak with him. uh because the the manager basically made me the question if I wanted also like he didn’t said like you’re going to be the captain that’s it point he asked me and I went to speak with Ari and the first question I made was if he was leaving the club because obviously as you said is not something normal I’ve never been through this in in my whole career and I spoke with him about that the offer that they gave it to me and to be honest to him and he said he said like if is there someone that that deserves that is you and I’m I’m very very happy that is is you getting the captain armband that uh if I have to take care of for myself I think you really deserve that and I think that was the point that made me understand I was doing things right you know uh obviously I know for him was very difficult and I don’t think he would have said something bad even if he felt it uh to me but the way we spoke and the way I think I’ve been treating him through these years also in the same way of like I said straight away to him like you might have lost the Arman but he’s still one of our leaders and that won’t change everything that we’ve been through because Ari when he was the captain we always make decisions together also because I was one of them and that hasn’t changed now because every time I have to do or take some decisions for the team I speak with certain players and Harry is one of them that is always there and your performance this season speaks for itself. Uh you’ve won you’ve well you’ve done 34 appearances which I think is an achievement in and of itself cuz a lot of players aren’t that consistent on the pitch. Um you’ve scored eight goals, 20 assists. You’ve got 12 player of the match awards which is the most by any player in the Premier League. Six player of the month awards and only Sergio Agüero Harry Kane and Muhammad Salah have more. All of them have seven. And you’ve also won some Matt Busby’s player of the year award for the fifth time the most by any other Man United player. And this that’s an award voted by the fans and there’s other awards that I know you’ve won uh in recent times. I saw you on stage the other day winning more awards. What has what’s happened? Why why are you sudden you know you’ve had you’ve been consistent throughout the whole time since you’ve been at the club, but this year seems to stand out for some reason. No, I think I think for this season first of all I think when the team shines the individual comes up and I think this season is being much better from the last let’s say two seasons. At the same time, uh I think the assists record and all this going around made made me having a lot of headlines and and and and stuff like that obviously is is an achievement that hasn’t been done for any player. It’s just Kevin De Bruyne and Tierry. So I’ve got the little graph here. It says, “Yeah, Kevin De Bruyne.” Thierry actually spoke to to Thierry about this as well and he sends his regards to you. Congratulates you on um joining him up there um with with the record. Yeah, it’s it’s something like that I’m very grateful for, you know, like we I put I put my name in this in this case with them up there is something something that I’ve never dreamed about or thinking about. I like I probably start thinking about that when I got probably into 16 17 assists. I was like, “Oh, I’m I’m actually getting closer now.” uh but it was not something that was in my head because in my head is always improving my last season and getting better numbers, better outputs, better performance and was never in my mind that I would go to 18, 19, 20 or whatsoever. Uh but obviously when you start getting close, you start thinking about a little bit and then all of us as fans start watching the games to see if you can do it and then and then obviously I think um I’ve been very consistent in terms of performance during my six years here but um probably other years were people that stand out that more than me and that’s why I probably didn’t got as much attention as I did this season with being captain and with being at the biggest club in the world I think in terms of fan base. Um, with that comes pressure and responsibility. The world talks about you. You know, no matter what industry you’re in, an occupational hazard of of being at the very very top or the peak of your powers or being even better is more and more talk. And, you know, I think especially because of this, people are talking even more about Bruno Fernandez than I’ve ever seen. You know, my group chat, I’ve got Man United group chat and we’re watching the game. We’re watching you. We’re willing you to we were willing you to reach this record, which you did. And now because you’re, you know, people are saying you’re the the player of the year in the Premier League, they’re they’re giving you all these big awards. With that comes even more criticism. And I think this is where your childhood has prepared you. Yeah. Your dad sounds like your dad prepared you. I I wanted to I wanted to clear something up because it was on my mind. Um, and I imagine it’s frustrating for you, which is when your words are twisted in the media. And recently Roy Keane criticized your mentality based on a quote he got completely backwards. He claimed you said, “I should have shot, but I made the passes.” And used that to suggest that you were chasing individual assist stats. But everyone who actually listened to the interview, including myself, knows you said almost the exact opposite. You were being self-critical of yourself in saying you should have passed the ball instead of shot because you wanted the best for your team. And so, interestingly, because I’ve spoken to so many of your your players, your, you know, your teammates over the last couple of days about you, they also told me that this is the exact opposite of your mentality on the pitch and off the pitch. And I know it must be frustrating for your leadership style to be sort of misrepresented in that way. Um, how how how do you respond to that? Like, how do you deal with that when you hear it and you go, “That’s not what I said.” Yeah. To be honest, like I’ve always said, I don’t mind criticism. I’ve always take criticism from everyone and anyone and I never reply to anything or whatsoever. People have an opinion, they think it’s good, bad, whatever. What I don’t like was when people lie about things and this case that you said about working basically what he said is a lie because you can either either he saw some other interview or he can’t say that I said one thing that I’ve just not said. And luckily for me is everything on record. Imagine if he wasn’t like then people will think like oh yeah Bruno is is the guy always trying to got the assist but one thing that is consistent is my number of creation is always the same. So it’s not that I’ve been trying to reach this now no I’ve been creating chances since I came to the Premier League probably more than anyone else. So he hasn’t changed that my type of play or him of play or way of playing hasn’t changed since I came to the Premier League. It’s not that this season probably Roy Keen saw someone like Bruno creating more because he wanted the assist record. No, he’s seeing the same Bruno that is about risky reward. He’s about creating chances for his teammates. Is about getting the best out of the other ones. Because the thing is like you will get criticized anyway. If you say if you are scoring goals, you’ll get criticized because you’re not passing the ball and you’re shooting. If you if you if you’re doing assists is because you’re passing too much and you’re not shooting to score goals. So, it’s going to always be like that. people will always make the the the balance the way they want. They won’t balance thing. They will put it the the way they want to the things to be. And obviously, I think I’ve always showed a lot of respect for for Raen and for everything he’s done for the club and for everything he’s is is um he’s always said I’ve never ever had something to say. I’ve never said something wrong. I even ask Ole his number to text him to be honest to to to have a word with him to say like that. I don’t mind the criticism. I don’t like when people lie about things that I say because this is like it goes a little bit over the top of the things that I think are acceptable. I accept the criticism. I accept that he can say things that I don’t like and I don’t like to see it. But as I said before that improves me. Uh what I don’t like is that people make their own words on what I say and it’s not true. He can criticize me, criticizing me, killing me, say that I’m not good enough, that I’m not a good captain for him, that I’m not the good player for the club whatsoever. It’s bad. Is is okay. I don’t mind. Is it is your opinion I like it? No. Obviously, I prefer Roy Kim to give me some praise sometimes because I’ve achieved something that not many players have achieved. I understand that this club is about winning trophies. I’ve never take that of my mind. I’ve always said in front of everyone that I want to win the Premier League and the Champions League. I never said I wanted to be the best Prem player in the Premier League. Never. Never one time any person has uh heard that Bruno wanted to uh get the assist record or get the goals record or get the player of the season or get um being better than anyone else. No, Bruno wants the club to be successful. Bruno wants the club to win trophies and that’s all Bruno wants. I accept his criticism. I accept that he he might likes me like me as a player or not, likes me as a person or not. But what I don’t like is that he puts words in my mouth that has not been said. That’s the only thing I don’t like. Well, I am I I did actually ask your your teammates what you were like and uh I asked them on and off camera, on and off the record. I couldn’t get some of them to be very serious, but um what I what I received is lots and lots of voice notes from lots of lots of your your former players. I text around uh last night and I’ll play you what they said. My friend Bruno, taking this opportunity to spread some love to you. I just wanted to take this opportunity to tell you how much we value you as a player and as a person. I think not many people get to see how are you after the games and uh outside of the pitch. So I would say that’s one of your best qualities. The way you care, the way you one of the first to help everyone. Leadership, your consistency, that’s something that I take from from example and you know it. It’s been a lot of years together right now. So hopefully this this can continue and we can win so many things and so much much more things together. Skip Tom for me. You’re a world- class footballer. consistently world class as well. Um, which is which is very difficult. I think everyone knows that how good you are. But I think more importantly from from my view is how you are as a human being. And that’s a side that not many people get to see. You know, the caring, compassionate, supporting, demanding at the right times. But yeah, I think for me that that is by far and a way probably your best quality. It’s why you’re the the leader of this team and and such a good human being. So for me, proud to call you the captain, but more importantly a friend. So top class. I mean, what he does on the pitch obviously speaks for itself, but I mean away from football, he’s he’s an unbelievable human being. The way he treats people, looks after people, the way he lifts others when they need it, and I feel like the respect he gives everyone around him that says everything about his his character. And I feel like I’ve been lucky to spend a number of years with him. And he’s one of them people that you you kind of appreciate having around you every single day. He’s the type of player who makes people around him better without even trying. We love you, Capitano. We love you, Capitano. I mean, I had so many more, but we just don’t have the time. Yeah. And now it’s just uh you know the standout from that for me is just uh the way they speak uh from me as a person not more as a player you know like uh and you you picked some people that I’m very demanding on them you know like um Diego and Luke as as being probably the players have been more time with me. Tom is probably up there with Harry, Harry, Luke, Diego, and then Tom and his uh is people that I really respect a lot. But as as I said to you, like it’s not what they say about me as a player, is more what they say uh from me as as as a person that uh that makes me very proud and very happy because uh you you can be a good player and I’m going to meet a lot of good players in in the world of football and you can train with a lot of them and and meet them a lot. But uh I think that uh what it stays at the end is like the way you behave as a person and I like to see that I have the good values that my parents showed me. That’s what I said at the start when you started describing what your parents had instilled in you back in Porto. It sounded like what all your colleagues and your the players you play with said to me as well because I’ve done this before and people will say, “Oh, he’s a great player. He’s amazing.” Whatever. But what was consistently true through all of those messages and there’s so many more is they all chose to speak about you as a human. Yeah. And that’s clear that clearly comes from what whatever your parents did at a young age. Why does that mean so much to you? I can see it in your face. No, because as I said to you, uh I think as a player you can be as good as you want. like uh at the end of the day I think the way you behave and the way you treat people around you is the most important thing because you spend so much time with them that uh they kind of uh become part of your day by day you know like you see more there often than then I see my parents for example I I obviously my wife and my kids is the people that I see the most but then after that is them I don’t see my friends from Portugal as often as them my parents my brother my sister I I see more them and and the way I behave the way I’ve been raised, the way I want to live my life and the way I want uh my kids to be is is the way they have uh they have said the things about me and this makes me very proud.

Why what is that emotion? I don’t know. It’s just like uh it’s good to hear that. Just just that.

It’s so interesting cuz I don’t think any anybody else that I’ve met would respond how you’re responding to hearing people talk about you as a man and as a human. I don’t know. I’m just a a soft guy. It doesn’t look on a pitch, but I’m quite quite the soft guy. One thing I’ve learned from interviewing a lot of founders and building companies myself is that trust is the real currency of business. It’s the thing that gets customers to buy, partners to say yes, and investors to back you. But as you grow, trust stops being just a feeling and becomes something you have to prove. Because the bigger you get, the more exposed you are. Customer data, security expectations, regulations, all of it. And the risk of one small mistake becomes incredibly significant. And if you’ve ever tried to scale while keeping on top of all of that, you’ll know it can become a full-time job. But our sponsor Vant automates your compliance processes and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together through their AI powered platform. And the companies already using Vant say they spend 82% less time on audits because of Vanta’s platform. So if your organization wants to inject time back into building and growing, make sure you head over to vanta.com/diary. That’s vanta.com/diary.

I’ve done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn which is unexpected is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for 2 three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO. We’ve taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO. We have put the question here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the diio conversation cards and it is incredible what happens. These are great if you’re in a romantic relationship and you want to connect your partner more. These are also great if you’re in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say they’re also great for families that want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world in the analog environment connecting human to human. It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do. Go to the diary.com and you can get these conversation cards right now. One of the things I learned through my investigations is that you have a a clause in your contract, and you don’t have to confirm or deny this. I’m not going to ask you to, but what I what I discovered is that you have a clause in your contract which allows you to leave for I I was I found out 60 million. And you chose not to leave Manchester United. You got a very very very large financial offer. I mean, I’ve seen some of the numbers that are reported up to 200 million to leave Manchester United and you chose not to leave. You could have rode off into the sun, sir. You frankly, I think the way you were playing, you could have gone to almost any club in the world. You could have got paid more and probably would have had a a more certain guarantee of winning silverware. And for some reason, you chose to stay. when that offer came in reportedly from the Middle East that you know the big offer that we’re hearing for a contract that was worth reportedly 200 million. Why didn’t you go? Uh I I said it before I I haven’t fulfilled my dreams here, you know, at this club. Was that a conversation you had with your wife? Yeah, also what was that conversation? She seems to be there all the time when you make these big decisions. Oh, of course she’s the one uh probably I never make a decision by myself because obviously moving around nowadays with two kids has has a lot to say obviously um and uh more than uh I don’t know become most richest person in my own town. I want to live my dreams and pass through the values to my kids that they they need to have and my family is always going to be the number one priority in everything I do. Um because they followed my dream. Uh, [ __ ] you. They um they my wife obviously I know on the other side it looks great life obviously a lot of money good a lot of good things but she chose to leave my dream with me and that’s says a lot about her because let’s say that uh when she chose to do that I was 17 years old going to a club with uh one point like let’s say uh oh you say 1500 you say 1,500 yes a month uh in Italy uh a lot of um uncertainty let’s say she had uh her own life she had uh her own dreams and uh obviously She she said like, “I’m I’m going to help you.” And uh that’s what she did since uh since day one until now. So she always has a say on everything I do. And you’ve been with her since you were 16. You’re 16. Yeah. 16. She was 16. Now I was about to be 17. So more or less. And uh and then after that we have we have constructed a beautiful family. two beautiful kids. Yeah. And so on that day when you get you get a big offer to leave Manchester United, she’s the first person you speak to. Of course, as always, I spoke obviously first my agent cuz he speaks with me about the offer, but then the first thing I did was call her and I was in uh I think was Hong Kong there. we were uh like we went on the postseason tour and uh the timing was not the best to talk with her because of the time difference and everything but she was there again and uh what uh the words she said was like have you have you achieved everything you wanted to achieve in your career and is is this the next step you want to give for for your future and for your career like because obviously this is the league I want to be this is the best league in the world. This is where I’m going to enjoy my football as I’m not going to enjoy it in any other place. So, we we still have uh dreams to fulfill. Why does that make you emotional? I don’t know. talking about family. It’s uh it’s tough just because um in the in the football career you go through a lot ups and downs and a lot of uh difficult moments and uh let’s say the ones that suffered most of them because they see your good moments, your bad moments, your good things, your bad things, your good side, your bad side also. But uh they always stand by you. So that’s the most important thing you can have in life.

And she’s always been there. Yeah. She looks like my fiance a little bit. She Portuguese. Portuguese girl. Yeah. Very down to earth, I hear. Yeah. She’s she’s the one that pushed me down to earth also when I’m probably getting too much or feeling too big. She’s always also very very tough on me to make me understand that’s all the things to improve. It’s my let’s say she’s the second version of my dad

probably that’s why I chose her and she chose me in certain way. Does she know this? Does she know? Have you been able to tell her? Yeah. Yeah, I’m uh she’s not she’s going to I can’t say the word what she’s going to say after she sees this and she’s me crying. She’s going to say I’m very soft. I won’t say the word exactly, but let’s say I’m the affection one, you know, the one that likes Uggs, that likes uh she’s she’s more I don’t know. She’s she likes she’s she I think she she’s through her life she had uh she had many things going on and she built this thing around her that she doesn’t need let’s say she doesn’t need much love or whatsoever but is there many moments where I know she needs I know she feels it I know she kind of like she’s just like is not good at saying what she feels And uh I’m more open. I I show more my emotions. I show more if I care, if I don’t care, if I suffer, if I don’t suffer. She she kind of closes a little bit for herself. Um but uh she’s a very strong woman to be honest. I know you have two beautiful kids together. Yeah, she we have a beautiful girl. That was the first one at the time. we were in Italy and then it came little Gonzalo when we were in England. So one, let’s say that she’s always saying that she’s half Italian and one uh that basically looks like British is white blonde um and uh one half English, let’s say, and then two full Portuguese people. I didn’t realize your celebration where you you cover your ears is for your daughter. Yeah, she covers her ears, right? Yeah, she used to do it when she was younger. She’s too old for that now. She’s a little Anna now. Very, very strong minded, very strong attitude. She has a lot from me in the terms of uh being very strong and very she’s like uh she can take care of herself very well. Is exactly like her mom. Well, I wanted to say thank you. I’m a Man United fan and hearing that you, you know, have gone through this very tumultuous period with the club where you could have gone where you’ve had many offers from many people to go and do something else and you’ve had offers where people offered you even more money and for whatever reason and I think it I now understand because I’ve understood your values that your parents instilled in you. You chose to stay and to stick with us as a club and as a fan base. So on behalf of myself and all of my friends that Man United fans and the Man Manchester United fan base, I just wanted to say a huge thank you. Loyalty is increasingly rare these days in football um because people are often thinking about other things. So as a Man United fan, thank you so much. By doing that, you’ve also taught me something as a man. You’ve also taught me what loyalty is and how you treat other people. And you’ve taught me a lesson about responsibility in my businesses, in my relationships, and in my life. And I think this is a really important lesson because there are so many young men that look up to you. And what you’ve said through the good and the bad times is that you keep on going. You keep on going. You keep on fighting. You don’t give up. You don’t quit. And it’s so great that the captain of the biggest club on earth has those values and puts those values before other things that might tempt someone with less integrity. So I just wanted to say a huge thank you. And I I also am passing that on from many of your teammates who are very very very glad that you stayed. Okay. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. That’s very kind words from you and I hope you stay even longer because I think we’re coming into an interesting period of Manchester United where I think we have a lot of the sort of foundations in place now to to carry on. That’s what I hope so. And I think this not the club but everything in general, the fans and everyone I think really really deserve to be back to the glory days. Things have changed. I mean Inos are here now. I know the um I know quite a lot of the guys at Inos. Uh I was away in the in the tour with a couple of them during the American preseason tour and one of the things they said to me is what that when they arrived in the club there wasn’t structure. A couple of them had said to me there just wasn’t. And it’s so rare that you have this this huge gap between the manager and the ownership or the players and the ownership that usually in clubs there’s structure. They’ve I think from what I’ve heard from players they’ve put that structure in place now. How has it changed with any officers’s arrival? No, I think was first of all it was important because as you said uh not that we didn’t have a structure but was very difficult for players to understand where where they had to go to talk in certain situations that they we were not very clear we should talk with and now I think it’s very clear that you have Jason then you have Omar and then you have Sajjim I’m I’m very aware that now the structure that we have is a is a good foundation and a good base for us to understand where and what places we need to go if we need something as a club or as a players. Has it improved? We started a process with uh Reuben where we thought that would be a process of 3 four years. That was the plan of the club. Then we know that was a break in in a relationship there between the manager and the club and they had to change unfortunately. Uh and now they today they have announced that they want to go in a direction with with Michael and hopefully for me I hope that he stays stable because the main thing the club needs is stability in terms of managing because if you really believe that Michael is the guy and and you took him to the job. I think you have to give him the foundations he need to build what he thinks he needs for a successful team. At the same time, I think you brought someone in that knows what are the values of the club. And I think that’s the main thing and the most important thing that the club brings people in that know the values and know what’s needed and have a great character to be at this club. And Michael’s the guy. Yeah. Because as I said, I think he’s the is the one that uh knows the club better than any any player that here. Uh he’s being probably more time at the club. I’ve been with him as a manager, assistant manager and then manager. the way he behaves uh he shows that he has the character to be the manager of many United. I think that’s very important to have someone that in the the full process will know always where he wants to go, where he wants to be and how much he wants this club to succeed. You said to me earlier that since Michael Carrick has joined, Man United have won more points than any club in the Premier League, and that’s statistically accurate. For this to continue on and to continue going forward, obviously the sum is going to be really, really important. And I was talking to a few of the other players about this as well like Diego. What needs to happen this summer in your opinion for Manchester United to continue to move up and potentially even fight for the title? We need recruitment is is obviously we know we know like obviously we losing Casemiro there is a pal pal thing that we had. So we going to need a player to replace him. Uh either is a player that is already in the house. Either is a player that’s coming. We need to reinforce the team to become stronger as a team. not we need the best player in the world this or that. No, we need players that want to come to United to understand that we through a process that we want to win the league but it might not happen but this is the way we want to go to become the successful club that we were before. So I think the recruitment has to be the right one. We need to bring the right people in again as we did last summer. I think in that Reuben was great in the choices he made to bring the players he he did to to the club because he brought good characters, good players and good professionals also. And I think that’s very important for the next one. Bruno, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they’re leaving the question for. And the question that’s been left for you is if we sat here in 5 years time and the five years that had just passed were a huge success, what would have had to have happened? Huge success. Oh, at let’s say that I’ve I’ve won the Premier League. I’ve won the Champions League with the club and uh we’ve brought got the old we’ve brought the club back to the place he has to be in terms of club. Obviously, in 5 years time, I would like to be able to touch that’s one of the gold ones too with my national team. Of course, that’s my biggest goal in terms of career is probably the World Cup. I would say because winning the Premier League and the Champions League with this club will be amazing, but representing my nation will be always the biggest achievement I have in my career because not many players get to do that. You know like uh representing your this is when you represent your people when you represent your parents your brother, sister, wife, kids. This is you you represent that small nation inside but in size but big in quality and big in in love and and fearless a fearless country that has conquered the world many times in different ways and do it in a in in in a football way will be will be a great achievement for us irrespective of what happens here and I I very much believe that Manchester United has now the potential to go and challenge for these these trophies here because of all the hard work that has been put in by many people in this club, but also because of your loyalty. Um, irrespective of what happens, uh, you’re going to be a cult hero at this club forever. Not not not irrespective of this stuff, because I think you’ve done something which is even harder and even more rare in the modern world, which is you’ve shown tremendous loyalty, unbelievable character, you’ve shown humanity, and you’ve set an example for the club when we were at our weakest, when we needed someone to do that the most. It’s all well and good doing it when everything’s great. It’s all well and good. But doing being that committed and that loyal and setting that much of an example and continuing to run on the pitch, but also to be an exceptional human off the pitch when times are hard, I think says even more about a man. So again, on behalf of all the Man United fans, a huge huge thank you and um please sign the contract when he’s in the table. Bruno, thank you. Thank you very much. Well done. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Okay.